# Should we be working harder to educate the Muslim world about free speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714 "2012-09-14T19:09:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/121 "2012-09-15T17:11:33Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > you know, I live in India and here I get to listen to spiritual gurus of Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sufism(Islamic) in local language. Having listened to them, one can notice all of them preach the same thing, the things that I wrote in last post. See above. I believe there _are_ hardline Sufis, but the people under discussion aren’t Sufis. They are Wahabbist Sunis and Shia fanatics. > [@](#): > > This is why I thought if this could be reflected in their religious book _They won’t change their religious book. They believe the same religious book forbids it._ ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/122 "2012-09-15T17:12:44Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > This is why I thought if this could be reflected in their religious book, it could bring world peace. You’ve got it backwards, I think. Religious adherents modify their interpretations of their scriptures according to changes and developments in contemporary religious thought. They don’t rewrite the texts of their scriptures and then change their beliefs to correspond. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/123 "2012-09-15T17:19:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > See above. I believe there _are_ hardline Sufis, but the people under discussion aren’t Sufis. They are Wahabbist Sunis and Shia fanatics. > > _They won’t change their religious book. They believe the same religious book forbids it._ > [@Kimstu](#): > > You’ve got it backwards, I think. Religious adherents modify their interpretations of their scriptures according to changes and developments in contemporary religious thought. They don’t rewrite the texts of their scriptures and then change their beliefs to correspond. These fraud individuals can be exposed badly in proper debates. Depends very much on where most of the Mullahs stand. If most of them are fraud, then our endeavor fails, otherwise there’s good chance that it passes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/124 "2012-09-15T17:24:13Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > These fraud individuals can be exposed badly in proper debates. They won’t participate in debates, end of story. And their interpretation is not necessarily fraudulent. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/125 "2012-09-15T17:26:11Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > If most of them are fraud, then our endeavor fails, otherwise there’s good chance that it passes. I think such an endeavor is inevitably doomed even in the total absence of any kind of fraud, simply because, as **Marley23** noted, sacred texts are considered sacred, meaning that nobody’s allowed to tweak their wording. I support your general ecumenical outlook, though, and wish you success in smaller-scale and more feasible efforts of interfaith reconciliation. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/126 "2012-09-15T18:52:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Not to derail your thread derailment but feel free to start your own thread. You mean, you don’t really have one so, go away? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/127 "2012-09-15T20:46:31Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > We know that Jesus, Buddh and Muhammad were enlightened souls, that is they had realized their true selves. We know that all such noble men preach the same thing to all which is that God/Allah resides within each one of us, that we must lose our egos to realize our true self and that weare the same as God. I am sure each religion say this same thing in essance, try n take this line f arguement. I think we will have a reasonable chance to succeed. What do you say? I am sorry but citing vague platitudes like “realized their true selves” proves nothing one way or another. The idea that all religions are basically the same is a delusion so naiive that it is dangerous, especially as Muslim immigration into western democracies brings Islamic values into conflict with western secular values. Until we understand and accept how different Islam is from modern, secular democratic thought, there will be conflict and more conflict. Sam Harris is a world-famous atheist author you might like to consult. By the way, like Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed, Harris is an enlightened soul (downright brilliant). You can find any number of YouTube videos by Harris, but in one of them, he shoots down your idea about religions being the same along these lines: We have a single word “religion” just as we have a single word “sport”. But if you look at what “sport” covers, you realize that it includes anything from badminton to extreme fighting, a sport so brutal that people are not infrequently killed or maimed for life. They are both sports, but they have little in common other than breathing. By the same token, if you look at what the word “religion” covers, and analyse the different belief systems it includes, you will realize that they are very, very different. For example, there is a religion called Janism that preaches absolute reverence for life. So what do extremist Janists do? They cover their mouths with surgical masks so as not to breath in an insect, and walk with their eyes cast to the ground lest they step on an ant or other living creature. What can you expect an extremist Muslim to do? Hijack planes filled with innocent people and fly them into skyscrapers secure in the belief that they will receive virgins in paradise for their murderous act. Even when the scriptures look similar or are from similar sources, the actual practice can make two religions as different as chalk and cheese. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have scriptures prescribing the death penalty for homosexuals. But Israel, and democratic western countries in general, have long ago decriminalized homosexuality. In fact, protection of the human rights of gays is a condition of entry into the European Union. And get this! Even though the Pope consistently condemns homosexual practice as sinful, HOMOSEXUAL ACTS ARE NOT CRIMINALIZED IN THE LAWS OF THE VATICAN STATE! The Swiss Guard might eject you from the Vatican if they find you having gay (or straight) sex in a back corner of St. Peter’s, but it is still not a crime. Over a dozen jurisdictions (states and sovereign nations) now allow 100% full marriage equality to same-sex partners. Now, compare this to Islam. Seven of the seven countries that have the death penalty for homsexuals are Muslim. Dozens of other Muslim countries have flogging, prison sentences, and in Iran, either death or compulsory sex changes. Not every Muslim country criminalizes homosexuality, but not a single Muslim country recognizes gay marriage or even protects gays from discrimination in housing and employment. And yes, there are non-Mulsim countries like Uganda and Jamaica that are very homophobic. But look at the difference between the west and Islam overall. Finally, I would challenge you to find anything in Buddhism that is equivalent to the following quotes from the Koran: \*The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. \*-- Quran 5:33 _But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein._ 2:39 ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/128 "2012-09-15T22:09:16Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I have nothing against diplomacy, but if attacks against us aren’t met with disproportionate violence they will never cease. Yeah, I remember having that attitude towards my younger brother when I was 10. I don’t remember it working very well. It doesn’t appear to work very well for Israel either. Even the Nazis couldn’t threaten enough violence to stop people resisting what they thought was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/129 "2012-09-16T00:19:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Based on your argument Martin Luther King Jr should have known his place and kept his mouth shut so as not to offend others and avoid unnecessary bloodshed. And his namesake shouldn’t have nailed his manifesto to the door of a church. Quite to the contrary. My argument is not that you should never say anything bad about a person or persons you disagree with. Certainly you should - with MLK or Luther, their declarations would have had little impact or affect, or would not have honestly put forth the results of those creeds they disagreed with, had they not said one bad word. It’s a pretty ludicrous notion, for sure. My point simply is, well, what I said. Insulting someone is not the best means of convincing them to change their mind. There is no yawning gap of nonexistence between “deliberate offense” and “servile agreement”, luckily for us, because it means that we can point out criticisms of someone or their views without resorting to insults. In fact, I myself said that earlier in the thread. Really, though, my best argument that this is so is you. You’re disagreeing with me; yet, you aren’t going out of your way to insult me. You didn’t pepper your post with insults or threats or whatever. You criticised my argument calmly in an attempt to convince me that i’m wrong; you appealed to analogy, and a cite to famous figures that I might hold in esteem. We disagree utterly. Yet, here we are, being cordially argumentative in the hopes of persuasion. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/130 "2012-09-16T01:09:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sorry, I should have specified that the movie **trailer** is pig-ignorant lies. It seems reasonable to conclude that the movie as a whole, if it exists as a whole, is unlikely to be any better, but that is not yet proven. > > . For the sake of discussion, list the lies. All I’ve heard by way of a protester on the news is that it shows Mohammad had sex with women, and killed people. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/131 "2012-09-16T01:12:52Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > My point simply is, well, what I said. Insulting someone is not the best means of convincing them to change their mind. well for the zillion’th time, nobody was insulted. This movie was not (to my knowledge) brought to Muslims. It’s insulting to them in it’s content, but it was not brought to them. Nobody was insulted (as a verb). This isn’t some trivial argument point, it’s the whole argument. The internet is chock full of this kind of content. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/132 "2012-09-16T01:53:18Z")
From the Wikipedia article, (barring contrary evidence), it actually was “brought to” Muslims. > **[Innocence of Muslims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_of_Muslims#Promotion)** > > Innocence of Muslims is a 2012 anti-Islamic short film that was written and produced by Nakoula Basseley Nakoula. Two versions of the 14-minute video were uploaded to YouTube in July 2012, under the titles "The Real Life of Muhammad" and "Muhammad Movie Trailer". Videos dubbed in Arabic were uploaded during early September 2012. Anti-Islamic content had been added in post-production by dubbing, without the actors' knowledge. > Parts of the video perceived as denigration of the Islamic prophet Muha... > [@](#): > > By September, it[_clarification needed_] had been dubbed into Arabic and was brought to the attention of the Arabic-speaking world by Coptic blogger Morris Sadek, whose Egyptian citizenship had been revoked for promoting calls for an attack on Egypt.[47][48] > > A two-minute excerpt dubbed in Arabic was broadcast on September 8 by Sheikh Khalad Abdalla[49] on Al-Nas, an Egyptian television station,[50] I have seen no evidence that any Muslims were wandering around Southern California looking for films over which to be offended. One anti-Muslim jerk seems to have promoted the film and found a willing dupe among the Islamists to promote the hatred that he was trying to incite. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/133 "2012-09-16T01:58:13Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You’ve got it backwards, I think. Religious adherents modify their interpretations of their scriptures according to changes and developments in contemporary religious thought. They don’t rewrite the texts of their scriptures and then change their beliefs to correspond. while I agree with this there will always be variations of the intensity of belief in any religion. This, IMO is where religions differ over time. While it’s possible to interpret scriptures to suit changes in societies it’s not possible to alter the recorded actions of the progenitors of the religion. Hardcore adherents will attempt to emulate the main prophet of the religion. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/134 "2012-09-16T02:11:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > From the Wikipedia article, (barring contrary evidence), it actually was “brought to” Muslims. > [Innocence of Muslims - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_of_Muslims#Promotion) > > I have seen no evidence that any Muslims were wandering around Southern California looking for films over which to be offended. One anti-Muslim jerk seems to have promoted the film and found a willing dupe among the Islamists to promote the hatred that he was trying to incite. To add to what Tom is saying . Al-Nas, the TV station that promoted the idea that this film was financed by the US government(which is what prompted the riots), is based in Egypt, but owned by a Saudi businessmen and is a radical Salafists station which makes the Muslim Brotherhoid look like the Quakers. It’s virulently anti-Semitic and anti-Christian. The Salafists who run it probably orgasmed when they saw the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/135 "2012-09-16T02:12:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > From the Wikipedia article, (barring contrary evidence), it actually was “brought to” Muslims. > [Innocence of Muslims - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_of_Muslims#Promotion) > > I have seen no evidence that any Muslims were wandering around Southern California looking for films over which to be offended. One anti-Muslim jerk seems to have promoted the film and found a willing dupe among the Islamists to promote the hatred that he was trying to incite. I’m still not seeing where it was brought to Muslims unless it was emailed to Sheikh Khalad Abdalla. This is the person who broadcast the trailers in Egypt. Morris Sadek was not even allowed in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/136 "2012-09-16T02:15:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > For the sake of discussion, list the lies. All I’ve heard by way of a protester on the news is that it shows Mohammad had sex with women, and killed people. The [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_of_Muslims#Promotion)that tomndebb posted shows the list of objectionable material so I’m answering my own question. from wiki - Muhammad as a: philanderer and a religious fake a womanizer a homosexual and a child abuser Muhammad’s followers are portrayed as "savage killers hungry for wealth and bent on killing women and children In the excerpt of the film and the trailer, the character of Muhammad calls a donkey “the first Muslim animal” with Time describing the scene as showing Muhammad having a “homoerotic, one-sided conversation with a donkey”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/137 "2012-09-16T02:27:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > See above. I believe there _are_ hardline Sufis, but the people under discussion aren’t Sufis. They are Wahabbist Sunis and Shia fanatics. A relatively minor nitpick. There are lots of radical Sunnis who certainly aren’t Salafists(called Wahabbists by their opponents). For example, neither Hamas nor the Muslim Brotherhood are Salafists, nor is Sheikh Yusef Al-Qaradawi. For that matter, most Salafists, though not all, would be better described as conservative than radical. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/138 "2012-09-16T02:44:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m still not seeing where it was brought to Muslims unless it was emailed to Sheikh Khalad Abdalla. This is the person who broadcast the trailers in Egypt. Morris Sadek was not even allowed in the country. I had thought that Sadek, (or whoever), having dubbed in the Arabic slurs, put the trailers up on YouTube, then made sure that they were brought to the attention of various others. I am not sure that the actual movie has ever been seen in the Middle East; I had thought that the trailers were the only parts actually viewed there, after they had been hyped (by both the anti-Muslim extremists and the Muslim extremists), relying on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/139 "2012-09-16T02:54:14Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I had thought that Sadek, (or whoever), having dubbed in the Arabic slurs, put the trailers up on YouTube, then made sure that they were brought to the attention of various others. > I am not sure that the actual movie has ever been seen in the Middle East; I had thought that the trailers were the only parts actually viewed there, after they had been hyped (by both the anti-Muslim extremists and the Muslim extremists), relying on the internet. Well the trailers are enough of a finger-poke-in-the-chest for the purposes of discussion. Did he actually forward the links? ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/140 "2012-09-16T03:39:42Z")
It costs them nothing to kill infidels. In fact, it’s their moral duty to do so. The only way that they will even stop to consider the value of free speech is if retaliation is done to them disproportionately for any attacks they make on free speech. I’m sick and tired of these barbarians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714.md?page=8)