# Should we be working harder to educate the Muslim world about free speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714 "2012-09-14T19:09:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/141 "2012-09-16T03:57:33Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > I’m surprised by the idea that “we” should teach 'them" how to be less offended by the things we do that offend them. > > Try turning that around and see how it fits. What about the idea that “_they_” should teach “us”? ---
**Author:** ![rakht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f08c70/32.png) [@rakht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rakht)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/142 "2012-09-16T05:52:10Z")
One can educate a person who has an open mind and is ready to understand and grasp other ideas. How can one educate someone who thinks his belief system is supreme and the only true system while all ideas emanating from the West are out to corrupt and destroy this perfect Islamic way of life! Though they have no qualms about using Western technology which somehow is the only acceptable Western component for them. Isn’t this hypocrisy of the highest order??? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/143 "2012-09-16T16:30:15Z")
> [@rakht](#): > > One can educate a person who has an open mind and is ready to understand and grasp other ideas. How can one educate someone who thinks his belief system is supreme and the only true system while all ideas emanating from the West are out to corrupt and destroy this perfect Islamic way of life! Though they have no qualms about using Western technology which somehow is the only acceptable Western component for them. Isn’t this hypocrisy of the highest order??? You don’t educate them, you walk around them and educate their children. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/144 "2012-09-16T23:18:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > well for the zillion’th time, nobody was insulted. This movie was not (to my knowledge) brought to Muslims. It’s insulting to them in it’s content, but it was not brought to them. Nobody was insulted (as a verb). This isn’t some trivial argument point, it’s the whole argument. The internet is chock full of this kind of content. Perhaps the reason you’re having such a tricky time getting that “nobody was insulted” thing to sink in, aside from the explanations offered so far to you, is that in my original post you were reacting to I wasn’t in fact talking about this initial video at all? I was responding to **Rune** ’s post, which I quoted and can quote here, too; > [@Rune](#): > > The best method of education is more movies like the one made here, more Muhammed Cartoons, etc. Eventually they’ll get with the program and start to ignore them since they can’t be rioting 24/7/365. Also to a lesser extent **magellan’s** post afterwards, though I didn’t quote that. I would hope you’d agree that creating videos (and so on) along the same line for “education” purporses would count as being “brought to them”? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/145 "2012-09-16T23:49:05Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Also to a lesser extent **magellan’s** post afterwards, though I didn’t quote that. I would hope you’d agree that creating videos (and so on) along the same line for “education” purporses would count as being “brought to them”? No, absolutely not. The person responsible for “bringing it to them” was the internet and an Imam. the end result was “hey we found something that was created 6000 miles away, let’s riot”. The stupid side of this equation was the anger-by-proxy. Somebody somewhere said something insulting and riots were directed to a substitute with no connection. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/146 "2012-09-16T23:52:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, absolutely not. The person responsible for “bringing it to them” was the internet and an Imam. the end result was “hey we found something that was created 6000 miles away, let’s riot”. The stupid side of this equation was the anger-by-proxy. Somebody somewhere said something insulting and riots were directed to a substitute with no connection. Please read my whole post. I was not referring to that video. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/147 "2012-09-17T00:45:53Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Please read my whole post. I was not referring to that video. Doesn’t change my post. Just consider it an independent entry. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/148 "2012-09-17T00:56:34Z")
Alright. So _would_ you agree that videos or other media created along the same lines as the now-infamous one, if for the purposes of education, would count as being brought to those targeted for education? As you say, it’s not some trivial argument point. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/149 "2012-09-17T01:31:19Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Alright. > > So _would_ you agree that videos or other media created along the same lines as the now-infamous one, if for the purposes of education, would count as being brought to those targeted for education? As you say, it’s not some trivial argument point. already answered it in post 145. Expression of thought is not a delivery system unto itself. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/150 "2012-09-17T09:31:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > already answered it in post 145. Expression of thought is not a delivery system unto itself. I’m going to have to request you read my entire post again. The point in question in my posts (and in the thread, nominally) is “education”. Creating a video or whatever, by itself, wouldn’t be pushing it on people. Creating media for the purposes of education, on the other hand, most certainly requires actually showing it to the people you intend to educate. Hence my argument with **Rune** ; if you’re attempting to educate someone, you’re attempting to persuade them of your truths, and that (at least, to me) appears very much to require some actual, purposeful, communication aimed specifically at your target, in which insults would be a very bad method of persuasion. So; would you agree or disagree that videos or other media created along the same lines as the now-infamous one, if for the purposes of education, would count as being brought to those targeted for education? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/151 "2012-09-17T23:47:12Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m going to have to request you read my entire post again. And I’m going to request that you absorb the idea of “consider it an independent entry”. I’ve stated my view on the idea that this video was brought to anybody. It exists and you have to come to it. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > The point in question in my posts (and in the thread, nominally) is “education”. Creating a video or whatever, by itself, wouldn’t be pushing it on people. Creating media for the purposes of education, on the other hand, most certainly requires actually showing it to the people you intend to educate. Hence my argument with **Rune** ; if you’re attempting to educate someone, you’re attempting to persuade them of your truths, and that (at least, to me) appears very much to require some actual, purposeful, communication aimed specifically at your target, in which insults would be a very bad method of persuasion. > > So; would you agree or disagree that videos or other media created along the same lines as the now-infamous one, if for the purposes of education, would count as being brought to those targeted for education? No matter how many times you repeat/restate your position my position stays the same. The internet is chock full of “education material”. It’s called “other people’s opinion”. Don’t like it and find it offensive, click on something else. It’s mere existence is not a transfer mechanism. That it was translated to make it readable is not a transfer mechanism. The video in question is being objected to because of it’s existence just as the suggestion a book would be burned was objected to. It doesn’t matter if it’s “educational material” or a broadside of pure internet insults. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/152 "2012-09-18T07:06:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Perhaps posters were hoping to be able to discuss the issue at hand without Godwinizing the thread and suggesting their opponents wouldn’t stand up to genocide. > > The ones you’re hoping to reach are the ones who wouldn’t participate. I’m sure your heart is in the right place, but this fails on every single level. Sorry. Religious leaders don’t compromise their authority this way, and proposing changes to the Quran is very blasphemous. Even liberal Muslims would agree on that. Christian leaders wouldn’t let someone else rewrite the Bible, Jews wouldn’t let you rewrite the Torah, and Muslims wouldn’t approve rewriting the Quran. > > There are enormous differences between all three. Buddha and Jesus didn’t mention Muhammad, you know. There’s that. > > Except there are lots. Or are you proposing that if you gave them an altered version of the Quran, they wouldn’t notice- like in the Folgers crystals commercial? > [@truthSeeker2](#): > > you know, I live in India and here I get to listen to spiritual gurus of Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sufism(Islamic) in local language. Having listened to them, one can notice all of them preach the same thing, the things that I wrote in last post. > So that is for sure the commonality and ultimate objective of all religions. This is why I thought if this could be reflected in their religious book, it could bring world peace. > Maybe its not possible, But worth a try imo.🙂 > [@Marley23](#): > > See above. I believe there _are_ hardline Sufis, but the people under discussion aren’t Sufis. They are Wahabbist Sunis and Shia fanatics. > > _They won’t change their religious book. They believe the same religious book forbids it._ Eh, while the idea of editing the koran is no doubt misguided, the basic point he’s getting at is important. Most world religions were crap a few hundred years ago. They’ve all seen significant reform movements. There is a pressing need for Islam to reform too, because in its current form it gives rise to extremism far too easily and prompts extremism in response. Reinterpretation of the hadiths perhaps? And while that reform should be driven internally, or at least by Muslims themselves, there must be ways it can be supported. Thoughts - Put pressure on the Saudi financing of Salafi teaching. Find ways of reducing madrasa based education. This is where the rioting mobs are being prepared. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/153 "2012-09-18T09:32:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And I’m going to request that you absorb the idea of “consider it an independent entry”. I’ve stated my view on the idea that this video was brought to anybody. It exists and you have to come to it. I apologise - generally when people quote my post I assume it’s because they’re intending to respond specifically to me rather than just muse on the issue in general. Likewise if they quote my post in series while I do the same, I tend to assume it’s an ongoing discussion. > [@](#): > > No matter how many times you repeat/restate your position my position stays the same. The internet is chock full of “education material”. It’s called “other people’s opinion”. No, it isn’t. There’s a big difference between “other people’s opinion” and material designed specifically for the purposes of education; if you’re planning on educating people, you are planning on showing them that material at some point. That’s the key point; Rune (and this thread) was talking about actually, literally, educating the Muslim world. That requires communication with the Muslim world. It requires an active stance with regards to material such as this, not a passive one. _This_ video is not the same as a projective education campaign, and that’s what’s being talked about in this thread and what I was talking about in my intitial post to **Rune**. Let me be clear; I am not talking about however much information there is on the internet which is already just sitting there with no attempts to share it other than to put it up. I’m talking about, quite literally, attempts to educate, and attempts to educate require actually bringing the material and your arguments to whoever it is you’re trying to educate. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/154 "2012-09-18T15:17:40Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Eh, while the idea of editing the koran is no doubt misguided, the basic point he’s getting at is important. I didn’t say otherwise and I don’t disagree with the basic point. The proposal he actually made was ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/155 "2012-09-18T19:35:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_of_Muslims#Promotion)that tomndebb posted shows the list of objectionable material so I’m answering my own question. > from wiki - > Muhammad as a: > philanderer and a religious fake > a womanizer > a homosexual and a child abuser > Muhammad’s followers are portrayed as "savage killers hungry for wealth and bent on killing women and children > In the excerpt of the film and the trailer, the character of Muhammad calls a donkey “the first Muslim animal” with Time describing the scene as showing Muhammad having a “homoerotic, one-sided conversation with a donkey”. LOL! Did Sasha Cohen star in this film? 'Cause he should. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/156 "2012-09-18T20:50:03Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Let me be clear; I am not talking about however much information there is on the internet which is already just sitting there with no attempts to share it other than to put it up. I’m talking about, quite literally, attempts to educate, and attempts to educate require actually bringing the material and your arguments to whoever it is you’re trying to educate. No, your not the least bit clear. In fact you’re backpeddling on what you already said. You said quote: “Creating media for the purposes of education, on the other hand, most certainly requires actually showing it to the people you intend to educate.” To this I say codswallop. It doesn’t matter what the media is. Period. End of discussion. Media is not a delivery system unless you force someone to watch. As we speak, Egypt is going to try the creator of this movie along with Pastor Terry Jones. Unless you can provide a cite that anybody forced Egyptians to watch the film then your argument is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/157 "2012-09-18T23:05:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, your not the least bit clear. In fact you’re backpeddling on what you already said. You said quote: “Creating media for the purposes of education, on the other hand, most certainly requires actually showing it to the people you intend to educate.” Exactly. “For the purposes of education” would be the operative part of that quote. > [@](#): > > As we speak, Egypt is going to try the creator of this movie along with Pastor Terry Jones. Unless you can provide a cite that anybody forced Egyptians to watch the film then your argument is moot. Why should I provide a cite for an argument I haven’t made and don’t believe? Once again, my arguments here are not about this particular video. I do not believe it was “brought to” those who are now up in arms, at least not by the creators. I don’t believe anyone was forced to watch the film in question. At no point have I claimed any of this. What I am claiming is that media that is designed for the purposes of education should not be insulting in nature if you want it to work. I’ve repeatedly disincluded this particular video as being an example of that. I’m doing so again. It’s not what i’m talking about. The video in question is not what i’m talking about. I am not talking about that particular video. The video in question? i’m not arguing about that one. I’m talking about videos (and media in general) designed for the purposes of education; media designed to persuade or otherwise change the minds of those targeted; media, in short, that by definition it is intended to show to those who are to be educated. Which would \*not \*include the particular video that’s caused all this ruckus. As i’ve said. I’m not backpeddling. I’ve said exactly the same thing all the way through this thread. It is not the argument you are apparently now holding that I have argued to. And, just as a minor quibble, you’re accusing me of both not being “the least bit clear” and also of backpeddling, which would seem to be a logically flawed argument to make. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/158 "2012-09-18T23:29:09Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m talking about videos (and media in general) designed for the purposes of education; media designed to persuade or otherwise change the minds of those targeted; media, in short, that by definition it is intended to show to those who are to be educated. Which would \*not \*include the particular video that’s caused all this ruckus. As i’ve said. Media, regardless of it’s intended purpose, does not educate nor can it educate. It can be used as a tool in the process of learning but that requires a willing student. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/159 "2012-09-18T23:59:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Media, regardless of it’s intended purpose, does not educate nor can it educate. It can be used as a tool in the process of learning but that requires a willing student. I’m sorry, but I don’t see the difference you’re drawing in your two points, there. “Used as a tool in the process of learning” sounds very much like something being used for education. Your phrasing does allow for a good illustration of the point i’m attempting to make, though. An offensive tool is less likely to draw willing students, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/160 "2012-09-19T00:54:20Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m sorry, but I don’t see the difference you’re drawing in your two points, there. “Used as a tool in the process of learning” sounds very much like something being used for education. > > Your phrasing does allow for a good illustration of the point i’m attempting to make, though. An offensive tool is less likely to draw willing students, after all. the operative words in your post are “draw” and “willing”. So we trade posts in what we think the point is we’re making. Of course an offensive tool is less likely to draw willing students. But we’re not talking about willing students are we? The people to whom we would like to explain tolerance operate under the premise that their god is the god of peace and death to anybody who disagrees. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714.md?page=9)