# Should we be working harder to educate the Muslim world about free speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714 "2012-09-14T19:09:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/161 "2012-09-19T01:05:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the operative words in your post are “draw” and “willing”. So we trade posts in what we think the point is we’re making. > > Of course an offensive tool is less likely to draw willing students. But we’re not talking about willing students are we? The people to whom we would like to explain tolerance operate under the premise that their god is the god of peace and death to anybody who disagrees. Eh, I would argue that even people at that kind of fanaticism would be willing to learn differently - even if their starting motivation was to find new things to turn back as ammunition. Which of course they’d immediately succeed with, if the attempt was made with insults, and might surprise themselves to not find it wasn’t. That, as I understand it, was largely what seems to have occurred here, though the creators weren’t intending for the audience that they got; there are people who are seeking out even of their own accord stuff they can then use to stir up further shit. It’d just be more so if similar media was outright designed for “education” purposes. By and large, it’s not so clearcut, however, or those riots would’ve been outright attempts at genocide and war. It’s a continuum. I don’t think you’d be suggesting that education was a good idea for those calling for death, but for rioters or comitters of death-short violence, eh, live and let live. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/162 "2012-09-19T01:25:57Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Eh, I would argue that even people at that kind of fanaticism would be willing to learn differently - even if their starting motivation was to find new things to turn back as ammunition. Which of course they’d immediately succeed with, if the attempt was made with insults, and might surprise themselves to not find it wasn’t. when I was in the 8th grade I wrote a paper on racism. In it I thought it was futile to try to convert the most ardent of such opinion and just go around them and try to influence their children. 40+ years of lifetime experience has solidified that opinion. I don’t see much success in “teaching” the radical side of Islam. One of the mechanisms of Islam is daily prayer. 5 times a day to be exact. Whether it was intended or not, it’s a form of brainwashing to repeat the same thing over and over again as a method of reinforcing the thought. Everyday is Sunday (OK Friday). This is a difficult thing to undo over time. Islamic states protect this methodology by restricting anything that contradicts the message or the messenger. If you can’t challenge the religion without incurring serious legal consequences then producing a student friendly enticement is not possible. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/163 "2012-09-19T02:25:49Z")
I’m not sure what praying five times a day has to do with blowing up embassies. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/164 "2012-09-19T02:35:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not sure what praying five times a day has to do with blowing up embassies. It’s great exercise for the joints which is necessary when having to plant bombs and make quick getaways. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/165 "2012-09-19T03:02:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not sure what praying five times a day has to do with blowing up embassies. It’s a daily continuous reaffirmation of a belief structure. Did you think the riots against the embassies were a sudden desire to learn how to make s’mores? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/166 "2012-09-19T03:09:12Z")
A belief structure which doesn’t actually have anything to do with blowing things up. That’s why **Warraq** over there is able to post on the Dope rather than loading a truck full of C-4. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/167 "2012-09-19T03:14:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not sure what praying five times a day has to do with blowing up embassies. I’d say you win the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/168 "2012-09-19T03:40:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not sure what praying five times a day has to do with blowing up embassies. Makes me think of the Brit I know who’s started a sideline in C4-laden prayer mats. Prophets are going through the roof. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/169 "2012-09-19T06:40:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not sure what praying five times a day has to do with blowing up embassies. :dubious: Really? Rituals are how all religions create the ties that bind their flock to them. I’m not going out to bat for a direct causal link, but I think it’s safe to say that if Islam required no prayers/rituals at all, you wouldn’t find any of its followers blowing up embassies in the name of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/170 "2012-09-19T14:05:31Z")
If Islam required no prayers/rituals at all, it’d be atheism, and Muslims would be relaxed and groovy like me. However, since every major religion has a significant ritual component, there doesn’t seem to be much of a positive correlation here. Clearly some Muslims are blowing things up, but I see no plausible causal link between that behavior and salah. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/171 "2012-09-19T14:47:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > One of the mechanisms of Islam is daily prayer. 5 times a day to be exact. Whether it was intended or not, it’s a form of brainwashing to repeat the same thing over and over again as a method of reinforcing the thought. And this makes Islam more brainwash-y than other religions because … they do it a couple of times a day instead of one? I don’t really disagree with the idea of brainwashing through repetition, but if you’re kidding yourself if you think five prayers a day is intended to do anything different from one a day or one a week. It’s all the same thing. But this does create some hilarious irony and a chance to post this Simpsons quote I’ve always enjoyed: Rev. Lovejoy: “This so-called religion is nothing but a pack of weird superstitions and chants, designed to take the money of fools. Let us now say the Lord’s Prayer 40 times- but first, let’s pass the collection plate.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/172 "2012-09-19T15:43:59Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I apologize if the subject sounds patronizing; I don’t mean it to be. It will sound far, far more patronizing to Muslim ears. ---
**Author:** ![Section\_Maker\_Jupe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/section_maker_jupe/32/1424_2.png) [@Section\_Maker\_Jupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Section_Maker_Jupe)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/173 "2012-09-19T16:04:39Z")
Are Madrasas similar to say, someone joining the “priesthood” in the west? Are subjects other than the Koran taught in those schools? Footage of the young men bobbing their heads as they memorize their lessons…I dunno…hours of that per day…doesnt seem healthy. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/174 "2012-09-19T16:07:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s a daily continuous reaffirmation of a belief structure. So you’re saying that Muslims blow up things because they pray more than Christians. Christians don’t blow up things because they only pray on Sunday and then by Monday they go to work and forget to do it, then before they know it, the weekend rolls around and they’ve completely wasted their chances to blow something up. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/175 "2012-09-19T16:48:48Z")
> [@Section\_Maker\_Jupe](#): > > Are Madrasas similar to say, someone joining the “priesthood” in the west? Are subjects other than the Koran taught in those schools? The word _madrasah_ literally translates as “school” or “college”. As you’d expect, most schools in Muslim-majority states teach subjects like any other schools. There are madrasahs which teach only Quranic memorization and philosophy, and those are indeed like joining the priesthood. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/176 "2012-09-19T18:20:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The word _madrasah_ literally translates as “school” or “college”. As you’d expect, most schools in Muslim-majority states teach subjects like any other schools. > > There are madrasahs which teach only Quranic memorization and philosophy, and those are indeed like joining the priesthood. While Madrasa means school, at least in my experience, which admittedly does not range very widely, it is rarely used to refer to a regular school which teaches science, maths etc. It is usually employed to refer to schools that are run by maulvis and ‘teach’ Islam. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/177 "2012-09-19T18:38:08Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > While Madrasa means school, at least in my experience, which admittedly does not range very widely, it is rarely used to refer to a regular school which teaches science, maths etc. It is usually employed to refer to schools that are run by maulvis and ‘teach’ Islam. In the West, perhaps. But it’s their word. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/178 "2012-09-19T23:58:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t really disagree with the idea of brainwashing through repetition, is a contradiction with > [@Marley23](#): > > but if you’re kidding yourself if you think five prayers a day is intended to do anything different from one a day or one a week. so which is it? 5 times a day, 7 days a week is 35 times a week times 52 weeks (+52 weekly prayer services) which is 1872 repetitions versus 52 times a year with other religious services. Does the phrase "Allah Akbar: sound familiar? It’s the beginning of every Muslim prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/179 "2012-09-20T00:21:22Z")
They need today’s equivalent of MTV to infect their culture and poison the minds of their youth. ETA: I suppose today that would be Internet porn. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714/180 "2012-09-20T02:00:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > They need today’s equivalent of MTV to infect their culture and poison the minds of their youth. this is precisely what we are seeing in the Arab world today. The resultant backlash and stiffening resolve of the old order is symptomatic of exposure to outside influence through the Internet and media. It will be a very difficult transition. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-be-working-harder-to-educate-the-muslim-world-about-free-speech/634714.md?page=10)