# Should we clone Neanderthals? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 1, 2010, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954 "2010-05-01T08:30:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/21 "2010-05-02T01:31:02Z")
Neanderthals: [ul] [li] Created tools from wood & stone, including different types of soft & hard hammers and knives shaped for specific purposes.[/li][li] Buried their dead, sometimes with grave goods and flowers.[/li][li] Used language to some degree (they have the physical tongue & mouth structure of modern humans)[/li][li] Probably used music, including what is probably a flute from bear bones[/li][li] Either created their own jewelry or traded for it with other homid species[/li][li] Practiced body painting & types of make up[/li][li] Controlled & used fire[/li][li] Created snares & traps for their hunting[/li][li] Had complex shelters[/li][li] Seem to have had the beginnings of religious belief, likely involving the cave bear[/li][/ul] They’re humans. Not modern humans, sure, but humans. It would be unconscionable to keep them as lab rats. ---
**Author:** ![Ostrya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/35a633/32.png) [@Ostrya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ostrya)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/22 "2010-05-02T03:18:18Z")
I agree with **Mr. Kobayashi**. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/23 "2010-05-03T06:16:06Z")
Interesting (and surprising to me) to see the SDMB almost evenly split on this issue. Some good arguments above, esp. **Mr. Kobayashi** and **Kaio**. For those who oppose cloning, do you oppose on ethical, religious or scientific grounds? And if we found a way to guarantee they were treated ethically and humanely (a complete and total hypothetical, because in the real world that’s never going to happen), would your position change? ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/24 "2010-05-03T06:26:15Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Pervert. Irrelevent to the topic. ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/25 "2010-05-03T07:51:39Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > Irrelevent to the topic. I think he was making a joke, not accusing you of being one. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/26 "2010-05-03T07:53:37Z")
> [@xash](#): > > I think he was making a joke, not accusing you of being one. And I think **he** was making a joke. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/27 "2010-05-03T09:01:45Z")
Aren’t there a bunch of them living in Arizona right now? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/28 "2010-05-03T09:09:54Z")
To clarify, a guarantee of ethical treatment would have to be integral to the process. If we brought one or more back we’d be in a parental position, and like all parents we have a responsibility and duty of care to our children. This means guaranteeing their safety and well-being, particularly against the prejudices of the general population. This doesn’t mean keeping them isolated their entire lives, but you give presidents Secret Service detail for protection and I’ve not heard anyone complain about that. The first generation would definitely be the most risky, since we know next to nothing nothing about things like Neanderthal psychology, and not really a great deal about their robust physiology, things like what diseases or disorders they might be prone to (at least in comparison to _h. sapiens sapiens_). We know that, as well as hunting related injuries and fractures, that they were somewhat prone to arthritis. Modern medicine, combined with examinations of a living being (not to sound cold, I just mean a medical check-up type scenario) could lead to them being more healthy than the average human. We also think that their young matured quicker than that of our own, which means they’d probably need a specialised environment within which to learn, at least initially, as our own pedagogy based on human maturation may well go out the window with a Neanderthal child. These problems, thanks to information gained about them, would be greatly reduced after the first generation. Like all parents we must also cut the umbilical cord at some point, despite the differences they are definitely intelligent. This would be the greatest discovery to be gained, their potential is completely unknown. What could they have accomplished if it was archaic humans that picked the short straw? We’ll never know. Bringing one back won’t answer that question, as it’s not Neanderthal progress or culture that (s)he has to build upon, but human progress and culture. Still, their biology and unique status would give said Neanderthal perspective we lack. It would ultimately end up adding to the collective body of human knowledge, even if Neanderthals turn out not to be too bright, that itself is an insight. Regardless, as intelligent beings they must be allowed the freedom and self-determination we grant ourselves, or at least consider inalienable rights in most societies. How we deal with this may depend on what we’ve learned from their upbringing, if it turns out they are a potential danger to themselves or others there’s not much we can do but restrain them for their own safety. Still, the incredible things we can learn about them and us would make the process worthwhile. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/29 "2010-05-03T13:56:35Z")
> [@xash](#): > > I think he was making a joke, not accusing you of being one. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > And I think **he** was making a joke. I quite suspect that you are both correct. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/30 "2010-05-03T14:01:19Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > I quite suspect that you are both correct. We were both kidding I think. I suppose this is one of those cases where a string of smilies may have helped, but I like to live dangerously. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/31 "2010-05-03T18:36:23Z")
> [@xash](#): > > For those who oppose cloning, do you oppose on ethical, religious or scientific grounds? And if we found a way to guarantee they were treated ethically and humanely (a complete and total hypothetical, because in the real world that’s never going to happen), would your position change? Ethics and empathy, basically. How would I feel if put in that position? Would I feel like I’d been granted opportunities, or would I feel like I’d had my life choices extremely limited before I was even born? I’m just generally opposed to doing things that would make me feel like I’d gotten royally screwed if someone had done them to me. And honestly, I have no idea how to respond to your hypothetical, because I can’t even begin to imagine a circumstance where all ends well. If you bring a Neanderthal back, you can either allow them to be a part of a society/culture that will hate them and let them know it; or you can pen them up like a lab rat. Or, I suppose, we could say “here’s some supplies and some survival skills, we’ll leave you in the middle of the Congo away from the mass of human society and you can fend for yourselves.” Which isn’t much of a choice for them, either. Basically I believe that we have a responsibility not to stand in the way of another person’s freedom of choice. On the occasion that such is unavoidable (and it is unavoidable in the context of having/creating children – no child has the option to choose what kind of home environment it is born into), our responsibility is to make sure that the decision WE make, that the child/Neanderthal is stuck with, is the best possible choice FOR THEM. Not for us. (This is why I really wish more people would spend more time on genuine, self-critical analysis before they go ahead and have babies. If someone can’t honestly say that they can provide good parenting and a healthy home environment, they should choose not to have kids. To do otherwise is cruel to a child who had no say in the decision. And particularly during a child’s formative years, a bad home environment can really fuck them up.) “Because I want to” is not a good enough reason to do this when another human being is going to be so **fundamentally** impacted by your decision. This is one choice in life that will affect someone else _for the rest of their life._ > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > This doesn’t mean keeping them isolated their entire lives, but you give presidents Secret Service detail for protection and I’ve not heard anyone complain about that. Well, the thing with this is, no one is forced to be President. If someone **chooses** to pursue the Presidency, and gets it, then yes, a SS detail is part of that package – but that’s also something that everyone knew going in. Presumably, Presidential candidates discuss this with their families ahead of time, and incorporate this knowledge into their decision-making process. If a potential candidate and/or his family is absolutely opposed to having a detail follow them around for the next couple decades, they have the option of not running. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/32 "2010-05-03T18:49:26Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Neanderthals: > > [ul] > [li] Created tools from wood & stone, including different types of soft & hard hammers and knives shaped for specific purposes.[/li][li] Buried their dead, sometimes with grave goods and flowers.[/li][li] Used language to some degree (they have the physical tongue & mouth structure of modern humans)[/li][li] Probably used music, including what is probably a flute from bear bones[/li][li] Either created their own jewelry or traded for it with other homid species[/li][li] Practiced body painting & types of make up[/li][li] Controlled & used fire[/li][li] Created snares & traps for their hunting[/li][li] Had complex shelters[/li][li] Seem to have had the beginnings of religious belief, likely involving the cave bear[/li][/ul] > > They’re humans. Not modern humans, sure, but humans. It would be unconscionable to keep them as lab rats. If we did clone a neanderthal, and found out that he was able to understand complex questions, and we asked him “would you rather have never existed?” what do you suppose he would say? ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/33 "2010-05-03T18:54:59Z")
“The weather here is a balmy 73 degrees, and we are five minutes from kick off here at the NNFL’s [Neanderthal National Football Leauge] Super Bowl XIV and the crowd is going crazy…” Physically they were superior to us in several ways, the possibilites for professional sports are interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/34 "2010-05-03T18:56:00Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > If we did clone a neanderthal, and found out that he was able to understand complex questions, and we asked him “would you rather have never existed?” what do you suppose he would say? I imagine the answer would be yes, much like someone asking you “Are you glad you were born?” Maybe no, though. I am for it, though. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/35 "2010-05-03T18:56:09Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > If we did clone a neanderthal, and found out that he was able to understand complex questions, and we asked him “would you rather have never existed?” what do you suppose he would say? If you asked him while he was a teenager he’d likely say yes. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/36 "2010-05-03T19:57:51Z")
> [@xash](#): > > For those who oppose cloning, do you oppose on ethical, religious or scientific grounds? Ethical. I don’t give a damn about the rest of it. > [@](#): > > And if we found a way to guarantee they were treated ethically and humanely (a complete and total hypothetical, because in the real world that’s never going to happen), would your position change? I suppose. Might as well give him wings while we’re at it. For that matter, if I understand correctly, even assuming we could clone a healthy human is a bit of a long shot, isn’t it? [QUOTE=Mosier] If we did clone a neanderthal, and found out that he was able to understand complex questions, and we asked him “would you rather have never existed?” what do you suppose he would say? [/quote] Who knows? It would depend a lot on the nature of his existence wouldn’t it? Would you want to live the life of a lab chimp? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/37 "2010-05-03T20:00:23Z")
I read the thread title as “Should we close the Netherlands?” ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/38 "2010-05-03T20:04:08Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I read the thread title as “Should we close the Netherlands?” Yes, as soon as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/39 "2010-05-03T20:55:10Z")
Mind you, if we could clone Mammoths, I would be all over that shit. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954/40 "2010-05-03T20:56:39Z")
I really, _really_ want a mammoth burger. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-clone-neanderthals/537954.md?page=3)