# Should we discard the political label "progressive"? I say no **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069 "2008-12-07T00:17:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/21 "2008-12-09T01:45:42Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > What does any of this have to do with keeping or discarding the label “progressive”? It has to do with **Chronos’** comment in post #15, which does not have anything to do with “progressive” as a label but does have to do with something closely related, the validity of the concept of political “progress.” ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/22 "2008-12-09T04:01:49Z")
> [@shallora](#): > > while anarchists aren’t interested in order whatsoever. You don’t know thing one about anarchism do you? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/23 "2008-12-09T04:22:16Z")
Then you’ve chosen a bad example. Lenin understood that real progress takes time and effort just as well as any other progressive or radical. While some changes (like the overthrow of bourgeois society) had to be done quickly, he most assuredly did _not_ assume that the Bolsheviks knew how to build a communist society all at once, top to bottom; in fact he never even said it was the job of the Bolsheviks alone to do it. At the end of his pamphlet [_State and Revolution_](http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/), written _before_ the October Revolution, he said that the real flowering of communist society would only come about: > [@](#): > > From the moment all members of society, or at least the vast majority, have learned to administer the state _themselves_, have taken this work into their own hands… when _all_ have learned to administer and actually to independently administer social production, independently keep accounts and exercise control… Belief that this could happen in a very short span of time is naïve and nowhere did Lenin express that belief. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/24 "2008-12-09T04:23:09Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > You don’t know thing one about anarchism do you? I do, I have at least three issues of [_Anarchy Comics!_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_Comics)🙂 And don’t get me started on [_Commies from Mars_](http://www.amazon.com/Commies-Mars-Planet-Collected-Works/dp/0867193433) . . . ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/25 "2008-12-09T04:46:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Oh, I think most of the right’s ideas & schemes have been given a fair field test, by now. And failed. Most perhaps, but what about Individual Health Savings Accounts? Privatized Social Security? Sure, we can demonstrate logically that these wouldn’t work that well, but they appeal to the Rand-addled American mind. As do ideas like a color-blind society with no legal remedy to enforce its lack of discrimination, or banning abortion without actually imposing criminal penalties on anyone. Woo-hoo. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/26 "2008-12-09T21:54:46Z")
What is “RW”? [[insert generic rant about not defining abbreviations]] I think that political discourse should not bother with overarching labels. It causes arguments about definitions, often of No True Scotsman variety. It tries to shoehorn “correct” answers to multiple policy questions that don’t necessarily have any connection. (Policies stances on nuclear power and abortion, for example.) Its broad brush alienates people who feel they don’t completely fit in. It feeds the soundbite culture and the us-vs-them mentality. I’m not sure what the solution is, but I’m tired trying to figure out what political labels mean. Statements like “I am a ” are simply ignored by me. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/27 "2008-12-09T22:58:40Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > What is “RW”? [[insert generic rant about not defining abbreviations]] Right-wing. > [@Pleonast](#): > > I think that political discourse should not bother with overarching labels. It causes arguments about definitions, often of No True Scotsman variety. It tries to shoehorn “correct” answers to multiple policy questions that don’t necessarily have any connection. (Policies stances on nuclear power and abortion, for example.) Its broad brush alienates people who feel they don’t completely fit in. It feeds the soundbite culture and the us-vs-them mentality. Nevertheless, it is not the case that we are simply a society of 300 million individuals each with his/her own particular, unique concatenation of political views. That **is** true, but it is also true that broad political traditions and tendencies and schools of thought are very real, and there are many of them, and people form political alliances and movements based on them even when the members of a given movement do not necessarily agree about every little thing. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/28 "2008-12-10T01:17:42Z")
But, to follow on what Pleonast said, doesn’t it make more sense to have movements of opinion _about a given issue,_ rather than overarching categories? I’m a moderate on gun control, an authoritarian conservationist on natural resource policy, largely indifferent to sex-related “social issues,” highly redistributionist on tax policy, kind of libertarian on military policy, not so libertarian on corporate policy, & favor single-payer health care for efficiency reasons. Some of these stances are rooted in primary values, some are more pragmatic. But some people will decide they’re “conservatives” & look to a “conservative” leader to tell them the “conservative” stance on every blessed thing. Isn’t that problematic? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/29 "2008-12-10T01:35:29Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > But, to follow on what Pleonast said, doesn’t it make more sense to have movements of opinion _about a given issue,_ rather than overarching categories? There are such things as “single issue” movements. The point is, political ideologies, traditions and movements are, like religions, **organisms with a life of their own,** greater than the sum of their followers as you are greater than the sum of your cells. And we do need names for them. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/30 "2008-12-10T02:51:31Z")
OK, I’m willing to use the term “progressive,” but still, it bugs me. I don’t believe in progress for its own sake. It matters what we’re progressing toward. ---
**Author:** ![OffByOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OffByOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OffByOne)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/31 "2008-12-10T22:18:49Z")
I prefer the term “Progressive” because the right wing has succeeded in demonizing “Liberal.” Liberal = Left = Socialism = Communism = Bad = Satan’s Spawn ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/32 "2008-12-11T01:52:01Z")
> [@OffByOne](#): > > I prefer the term “Progressive” because the right wing has succeeded in demonizing “Liberal.” > > Liberal = Left = Socialism = Communism = Bad = Satan’s Spawn When I was a young & stupid Reaganite, I believed this very thing. (Well, briefly.) “Progressive” seems to me even more the opposite of “conservative,” & its use, in my mind, marks one as further to the left than the standard “liberal Democrat.” Lately, I just say I’m a socialist. But I’m pretty much the figure of a wild-eyed Trotsyite compared to the tax protesters & social conservatives in my hometown. ymmv. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/33 "2008-12-11T04:04:12Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > wild-eyed Trotsyite Welcome to the dark side. We’ll spot you a ‘k’. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/34 "2008-12-11T04:19:11Z")
aargh. Of course, now I’m trying to figure out what a “Trotsyite” would be. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/35 "2008-12-11T05:16:10Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > aargh. Of course, now I’m trying to figure out what a “Trotsyite” would be. It would be a dude who, after all these years, still can’t let go of the memory of ol’ “Trotsy” Pizzarelli. **Man,** that chick was hot to . . . I’ll be in my bunk. Permanent Revolution! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/36 "2008-12-11T05:17:42Z")
> [@OffByOne](#): > > I prefer the term “Progressive” because the right wing has succeeded in demonizing “Liberal.” Well, that’s one of Lind’s **points.** You can’t get away from demonization by rebranding. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/37 "2008-12-11T05:21:17Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > OK, I’m willing to use the term “progressive,” but still, it bugs me. I don’t believe in progress for its own sake. It matters what we’re progressing toward. So it does. But progressivism, at least as I defined and defended it in the OP, does have a definite content. From [“The American Paradox,”](http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2003/01/halstead.htm) by Ted Halstead, published in _The Atlantic Monthly,_ January/February 2003: > [@](#): > > Nothing illustrates America’s profound contradictions more starkly than a comparison with other advanced democracies: among these the United States is either the very best or the very worst performer on a wide range of social and economic criteria. We are simultaneously the leader and the laggard among our peers—almost always exceptional, almost never in the middle. > > Without question we are the richest, most powerful, and most creative nation on the planet. Our economic and military might stems from our embrace of a particularly high-octane brand of capitalism, supported by financial markets that are deeper and broader than any others, labor markets that are more flexible, and a culture of entrepreneurialism that is unparalleled. These attributes have turned America into the world’s unrivaled engine of innovation and wealth creation. We boast more patent applications than the entire European Union; almost three times as many Nobel laureates as Britain, our closest competitor; and more business start-ups per capita than almost every other advanced democracy. One in twelve Americans will start his or her own business, evincing another outstanding American trait—our great tolerance for risk. And our export of movies, television shows, music, and fast-food chains makes us, for better or worse, the dominant cultural force on the globe. > > But like the Roman god Janus, America has two faces. Despite being the richest nation on the planet, we suffer from higher rates of poverty, infant mortality, homicide, and HIV infection, and from greater economic inequality, than other advanced democracies. We have far more uninsured citizens, and a lower life expectancy. On a per capita basis the United States emits considerably more greenhouse gases and produces more solid waste. We spend more per student on K-12 education than almost all other modern democracies, yet our students perform near the bottom on international tests. We have the highest rates of teen pregnancy and among the highest proportions of single parents, and American parents have the least amount of free time to spend with their children; indeed, the average American works nine weeks more each year than the average European. Our performance on many social indicators is so poor, in fact, that an outsider looking at these numbers alone might conclude that we were a developing nation. > > How do we reconcile these two faces of America? To a remarkable degree the United States seems to have exchanged social cohesion and a broad-based middle class for economic dynamism and personal freedom. Have we abandoned what used to be referred to as the common good? > > \ > > THE TWO FACES OF AMERICA > > This list of “bests” and “worsts” is based on a variety of sources—including statistics from the United Nations, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, and a number of other groups and experts—but the basic criteria are consistent. Among advanced democracies, America had to rank in the top three for a category to be listed under “bests” and in the bottom three for a category to be listed under “worsts.” (Where applicable, all rankings were determined on a rate basis or as a percentage of population.) > > Bests-------------------------------------------------Worsts > > Gross domestic product------------------------------Poverty > Productivity---------------------------------------------Economic inequality > Business start-ups------------------------------------Carbon-dioxide emissions > Long-term unemployment---------------------------Life expectancy > Expenditure on education---------------------------Infant mortality > University graduates----------------------------------Homicide > R&D expenditure---------------------------------------Health-care coverage > High-tech exports--------------------------------------HIV infection > Movies exported---------------------------------------Teen pregnancy > Breadth of stock ownership--------------------------Personal savings > Volunteerism--------------------------------------------Voter participation > Charitable giving---------------------------------------Obesity Each approach to the social contract has its pluses and minuses, of course, but **on balance** America has made a very bad bargain for itself and should learn from the examples of others. Progressives – **only** progressives – can make that happen ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/38 "2008-12-11T05:23:54Z")
Not really convinced that we can, entirely convinced that we must as least try. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/39 "2008-12-11T05:59:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not really convinced that we can, entirely convinced that we must as least try. What’s so inferior about America, that we can’t do what the Euros have done? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069/40 "2008-12-11T17:45:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The point is, political ideologies, traditions and movements are, like religions, **organisms with a life of their own,** greater than the sum of their followers as you are greater than the sum of your cells. I’m not convinced this is a good thing, for the reasons I stated earlier. While it’s possible to use broad labels to describe large groups, I think doing so is too homogenizing. Look at the [political types that the Pew Research Center](http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=949) has identified and try to come up with larger groups that have reasonable utility. Even these groups are broad–I certainly don’t fit well in any of them. Maybe political labels are a necessary part of mobilizing political forces, but it seems to me that the labels (liberal, conservative, Republican, Democrat) have become more important than issues. I get a sense of the group browbeating individuals into particular stances on issues because its the “label” thing to do rather than supporting them on their own merits. To bring this back on topic: I would prefer all broad political labels be discarded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-discard-the-political-label-progressive-i-say-no/476069.md?page=3)