# Should we encourage nuclear proliferation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948 "2016-12-17T17:42:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/1 "2016-12-17T17:42:16Z")
No, not weapons but reactors. All those power plants spewing pollutants and CO2. Nuclear energy is cleaner and safer. We use nuclear reactors in submarines and aircraft carriers, so why not civilian vessels? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/2 "2016-12-17T18:07:07Z")
Define “encourage”. Nuclear ship propulsion is stupidly uncompetitive economically with conventional oil-fired powerplants. If we as a society wanted to reduce greenhouse emissions then paying ships to carry nuclear reactors instead of oil-fired engines would be way, way, way down the list in terms of CO2 eliminated per dollar spent. Not to mention the political issue that lots of ports don’t want nuclear merchant ships to call at all. See [NS Savannah - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Savannah) for more. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/3 "2016-12-17T18:26:51Z")
Late add: Reading the pages referenced at this wiki list [Nuclear marine propulsion - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_marine_propulsion#Civilian_nuclear_ships) is also informative about the challenges. None of which have gotten better since the 1960s and 1970s when most of this stuff was being done. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/4 "2016-12-17T18:39:42Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > We use nuclear reactors in submarines and aircraft carriers, so why not civilian vessels? Because a nuclear reactor is overkill for what most civilian vessels need. A ship that is basically a floating box of shipping containers has no need to operate without an external air supply or power an entire airbase. It just needs to get from Point A to Point B as cheaply as possible, without sacrificing _too_ much speed. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/5 "2016-12-17T19:58:32Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Define “encourage”. Nuclear ship propulsion is stupidly uncompetitive economically with conventional oil-fired powerplants. The Wiki page didn’t give any cost details, but if we were to encourage usage, then surely economies of scale would kick in? > [@Grumman](#): > > Because a nuclear reactor is overkill for what most civilian vessels need. Ships - particularly container ships - these days are much more massive than the 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/6 "2016-12-17T20:12:35Z")
Many various points aside. I DO think the experience of the US Navy’s reactor program DOES show that if you embrace the KISS principle of engineering (and enforce the fuck out of the rules) that nuclear reactors are not much to be feared. Or in other words…simple but doing it fucking right often betters…complex as fuck to keep from fucking it up…which results in some fuck up nobody ever thought of. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/7 "2016-12-17T21:12:00Z")
With the economics of the commercial shipping industry the implementation of a nuclear fleet for that usage does not seem very wise. I am pro nuclear, but this applicatoin is not a good idea. It would be better to provide the incentives for [the adoption of the innovative wind-power retrofits or new vessals development.](http://www.marineinsight.com/green-shipping/top-7-green-ship-concepts-using-wind-energy/) ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/8 "2016-12-17T22:16:23Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I DO think the experience of the US Navy’s reactor program DOES show that if you embrace the KISS principle of engineering (and enforce the fuck out of the rules) that nuclear reactors are not much to be feared. > > Or in other words…simple but doing it fucking right often betters…complex as fuck to keep from fucking it up…which results in some fuck up nobody ever thought of. What the US Navy Naval Nuclear Propulsion Program has shown is that you need to maintain a well-drilled crew of nuclear engineers and technicians who are subject to regular inspection (the dreaded Operational Reactor Safeguard Examination), the failure of which can curtail promotion or in the case of extreme negligence end a career. US Navy vessels utilizing nuclear propulsion systems are vessels of war with large operating budgets to support both the large number of highly trained crew to tend to the reactor and propulsion systems and spend considerable time at dock during refueling operations that would not be feasible for a commercial hauling vessel. The cost of enriched nuclear fuel alone I cannot parse the second sentence above, but the issue with the failure of a nuclear reactor is that the criticality and persistence of a failure are far greater than a conventional oil-fired engine. An diesel-fired turbine can certainly fail in a number of ways, including catastrophic fire and explosion, potentially sinking the ship, killing the crew, and leaking petroleum fuel that has to be cleaned up. But a catastrophic failure on a nuclear reactor can release radioactive coolant or materials and produce persistent radiation at lethal levels for decades, so even if it can be argued that the safety record of nuclear powered vessels is substantially better than that of oil-fired systems, the potential consequences of even a single failure have to be weighed against the likelihood of failure. And a poorly managed nuclear propulsion system can have many costly failures, [witness the many Soviet and Russian navy nuclear accidents](http://nucleargreen.blogspot.com/2010/01/history-of-reactor-safety-soviet-naval.html). Others have mentioned various concepts for wind- and hybrid-wind powered vessels, which actually makes a lot of sense as ships regularly experience high wind energy conditions. The flat open area of the ocean is ideal for developing and using wind power, and of course, prior to the development of the steam boiler virtually all ocean shipping was done using wind power. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/9 "2016-12-17T22:26:36Z")
In case anybody was wondering…I WAS not argueing that the USN’s record of operating nuclear reactors aboard subs and other vessels as a reason TO DO SO among other sea fairing boats/ships/whatever you naval pendants insist on calling them. What I WAS point out that whatever the USN does regarding the design,construction, operation, and whatever of nuclear reactors should be looked at as to how to “do things right”. Not the ONLY thing obviously…but then again…they certainly are NOT a bunch of fuck ups in that regard either. As to Stranger on a Train and the second sentence…well, just think harder about it. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/10 "2016-12-17T22:40:58Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Ships - particularly container ships - these days are much more massive than the 1960s. Even more are cruiser liners, like this little runabout, the[Ovation of the Seas](http://www.ovationoftheseas.com.au/) which just docked on Sydney. Do you reckon the paying public would flock to this floating hotel & amusement park in their thousands were it nuclear powered? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/11 "2016-12-17T22:48:41Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > Do you reckon the paying public would flock to this floating hotel & amusement park in their thousands were it nuclear powered? Why wouldn’t they? They flock to see the US’s nuclear-powered aircraft carriers. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/12 "2016-12-17T22:56:05Z")
So when Royal Caribbean International were designing their new Quantum Class liners, how long do you reckon they considered the cost-benefit analysis of having them nuclear powered? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/13 "2016-12-17T22:57:53Z")
It’s very expensive to run a nuclear vessel. Who’s going to pay for it? Proliferation of nuclear reactors and their technology \*is \*proliferation of nuclear weapons. Nuclear power gets more expensive by the second. Why do pro-nuke types always think we live in some Star Trek utopia with unlimited money? It didn’t happen in the 1950’s as they promised, and it’s never going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/14 "2016-12-17T23:02:35Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Nuclear power gets more expensive by the second. Why do pro-nuke types always think we live in some Star Trek utopia with unlimited money? It didn’t happen in the 1950’s as they promised, and it’s never going to happen. Yeah I know right? With all that coal in the air we will soon have free fuel just floating around for the taking. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/15 "2016-12-17T23:19:05Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Yeah I know right? > > With all that coal in the air we will soon have free fuel just floating around for the taking. If you’re willing to throw ungodly amounts of money at it, coal can be burned cleanly too. But when we say “that’s expensive” oddly enough, people listen. When it comes to nuke energy, I never hear “how much will it cost?” Suddenly it’s “environment at all costs! Don’t talk to me about money! let’s do this thing!” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/16 "2016-12-17T23:19:52Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > It’s very expensive to run a nuclear vessel. Is it? Got a cite for that? And remember I’m expecting economies of scale to kick in. > [@](#): > > Nuclear power gets more expensive by the second. Got a cite for that too? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/17 "2016-12-18T00:17:27Z")
> **[Nuclear-Powered Ships - World Nuclear Association](https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/non-power-nuclear-applications/transport/nuclear-powered-ships)** > > Over 160 ships are powered by more than 200 small nuclear reactors. Most are submarines, but they range from icebreakers to aircraft carriers. In future, constraints on fossil fuel use in transport may bring marine nuclear propulsion into... > [@](#): > > Development of nuclear merchant ships began in the 1950s but on the whole has not been commercially successful. The 22,000 tonne US-built NS Savannah, was commissioned in 1962 and decommissioned eight years later. The reactor used 4.2% and 4.6% enriched uranium. It was a technical success, but not economically viable. It had a 74 MWt reactor delivering 16.4 MW to the propeller, but the reactor was uprated to 80 MWt in 1964. The German-built 15,000 tonne Otto Hahn cargo ship and research facility sailed some 650,000 nautical miles on 126 voyages in 10 years without any technical problems. It had a 36 MWt reactor delivering 8 MW to the propeller. However, it proved too expensive to operate and in 1982 it was converted to diesel. Interesting to note that most civil nuclear vessels are used for ice breaking, which as I understand isn’t going to be much of a problem once the arctic melts. Who knows though? As with all things nuclear, keep dreaming, the “nuclear renaissance” will happen any day now, just like it has been since the 50’s. Hey, let’s wait for fusion ships! Yeah, that’s the ticket. Any day now. I’ve heard. Economy of scale as never worked with nuclear. Here’s a nice little PDF you might skim through: [THE ECONOMIC FAILURE OF NUCLEAR POWER AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF A LOW CARBON ELECTRICITY FUTURE: WHY SMALL MODULAR REACTORS ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM, NOT THE SOLUTION](https://www.nirs.org/wp-content/uploads/reactorwatch/newreactors/cooper-smrsaretheproblemnotthesolution.pdf) It’s a good counter point to the use of nuclear power with regard to carbon abatement and climate change. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/18 "2016-12-18T00:18:50Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Is it? Got a cite for that? And remember I’m expecting economies of scale to kick in. [“Navy Nuclear-Powered Surface Ships: Background, Issues, and Options for Congress”, Ronald O’Rourke, Specialist in Naval Affairs, September 29, 2010](https://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL33946.pdf):_In constant FY2007 dollars, the initial fuel core for a Virginia (SSN-774) class submarine cost about $170 million, and the initial fuel cores for an aircraft carrier (which uses two reactors and therefore has two fuel cores) had a combined cost of about $660 million._ And you can’t just waive around “economies of scale” like a magic wand. If you want to claim that nuclear propulsion is economically viable for commercial shipping, the onus is on you to demonstrate that through some kind of factual basis or rational estimate, not just argue that if no one can prove that it isn’t workable then it must be feasible. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/19 "2016-12-18T01:16:51Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > And you can’t just waive around “economies of scale” like a magic wand. If you want to claim that nuclear propulsion is economically viable for commercial shipping, the onus is on you to demonstrate that through some kind of factual basis or rational estimate, not just argue that if no one can prove that it isn’t workable then it must be feasible. Perhaps you need to re-read my OP? You might notice that the word ‘cheaper’ does not appear. Anyway, from the summary page of your link: > [@](#): > > The total life-cycle cost of a nuclear-powered medium-size surface combatant > would equal that of a conventionally powered medium-size surface combatant if > the cost of crude oil averages $70 per barrel to $225 per barrel over the life of the > ship. Crude oil has certainly been over $75 per barrel. I’ll read the rest of that document in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948/20 "2016-12-18T01:35:26Z")
We’ve spent billions rounding up loose nuclear materials to get it of countries that can’t secure it on their own. Why on earth would we want to put it in conveniently portable containers under civilian control. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-encourage-nuclear-proliferation/774948.md?page=2)