# Should we expect the police to show courage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825 "2013-07-29T16:56:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/41 "2013-07-29T18:35:13Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I think you’re glossing over a bit, though: you said obstinate implies malice, and I said mentally ill or on drugs or both implies crazy – and, okay, for the sake of argument, maybe malice beats crazy with regard to dangerous. But does that mean obstinate beats mentally-ill-or-on-drugs-or-both with regard to dangerous? > > If you tell me you were in a small room with someone who seemed to be obstinate, I’d say _“So what?”_ If you tell me he seemed to be mentally ill or on drugs or both, I’d say _“So what did you do?”_ In the context of refusing a police demand to disarm yourself, obstinacy implies malice. It means either you think you’re going to use your weapon, or at least need it to stall for time so you can try to escape or work some kind of a deal to surrender yourself. In other contexts, like refusing to give me change for a twenty, obstinacy carries no such implication. Sorry if that was unclear. But yes, when confronted by a guy holding a knife, a clear-headed gent who refuses to disarm strikes me as being more dangerous than a gibberish-spouting loon. The former has rationally decided that he needs his knife for whatever it is that he’s about to do. The latter might just enjoy a shiny surface, and have no conception that it is a weapon intended for stabbing or slashing, or want something to gesture with, or any other irrational purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/42 "2013-07-29T18:36:25Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > I stand to be corrected, but I don’t believe all or even most Toronto police cruisers have Tasers. The cops must wait for a supervisor to arrive on scene - he/she has the Taser. So only supervisors have Tasers, but _all_ of them have guns? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/43 "2013-07-29T18:43:36Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Uh, a knife-wielding man who happens to be _“mentally ill, impaired by drugs, or both”_ is a heck of a lot more frightening to me than one who’s _“just obstinate.”_ So wait, which one is it? Is it admirable and heroic that they shot this guy because his poor decision-making skills marked him as somebody who needed to be put down, in which case it needn’t have even mattered if anyone was in danger, or is this about how “frightened” the police were? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/44 "2013-07-29T18:48:50Z")
Canadian cops have guns? I always figured they did their thing with a stern expression and a stiff index finger to waggle at the ne’er do-wells. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/45 "2013-07-29T19:06:23Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > But yes, when confronted by a guy holding a knife, a clear-headed gent who refuses to disarm strikes me as being more dangerous than a gibberish-spouting loon. The former has rationally decided that he needs his knife for whatever it is that he’s about to do. The latter might just enjoy a shiny surface, and have no conception that it is a weapon intended for stabbing or slashing, or want something to gesture with, or any other irrational purpose. See, to me, the _“any other irrational purpose”_ part is plenty danged scary. If someone refuses to drop his knife because he’s rationally decided to be obstinate, that’s bad; if he refuses because of an irrational purpose, that’s – jeez, I don’t even know what kind of irrational he is, just that he _is_ irrational. Does he even realize we’re in a standoff? I mean, a rational guy you can maybe reason with – at least on the level of Balance Of Power or Balance Of Threat; with an irrational guy, the odds of playing Come Let Us Reason Together drop accordingly, right? As we approach the point of _“have no conception”_, the odds of Solve This Problem Physically rise? [QUOTE=Jimmy Chitwood] So wait, which one is it? Is it admirable and heroic that they shot this guy because his poor decision-making skills marked him as somebody who needed to be put down, in which case it needn’t have even mattered if anyone was in danger, or is this about how “frightened” the police were? [/QUOTE] In the part you copy-and-pasted, I mentioned that _I’d_ be more frightened by a knife-wielding man who happened to be mentally ill or on drugs than by a knife-wielding man who happened to be obstinate. I’m not saying the _police_ were frightened; they apparently just did their duty, regardless of their personal feelings. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/46 "2013-07-29T19:06:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So only supervisors have Tasers, but _all_ of them have guns? Yeah. Unbelievable. I will bet that the inquest into the kid’s death will, among other things, recommend that all police cruisers be equipped with Tasers. Mark my words. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/47 "2013-07-29T19:13:28Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Yeah. Unbelievable. > > I will bet that the inquest into the kid’s death will, among other things, recommend that all police cruisers be equipped with Tasers. Mark my words. I certainly hope you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/48 "2013-07-29T19:15:10Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m not saying the _police_ were frightened; they apparently just did their duty, regardless of their personal feelings. That’s not so apparent to me. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/49 "2013-07-29T19:18:21Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > See, to me, the _“any other irrational purpose”_ part is plenty danged scary. If someone refuses to drop his knife because he’s rationally decided to be obstinate, that’s bad; if he refuses because of an irrational purpose, that’s – jeez, I don’t even know what kind of irrational he is, just that he _is_ irrational. Does he even realize we’re in a standoff? I mean, a rational guy you can maybe reason with – at least on the level of Balance Of Power or Balance Of Threat; with an irrational guy, the odds of playing Come Let Us Reason Together drop accordingly, right? As we approach the point of _“have no conception”_, the odds of Solve This Problem Physically rise? Hey, neither situation is anybody’s perfect Sunday. The tradeoff of “maybe I can reason with the rational guy”, though, is that the rational guy decided to arm himself with a sharp bit of steel, and also decided that he can’t do without it. I’ll take my chances with the loon. You might not be able to talk him out of doing you harm, but you might not need to, either. > [@KarlGauss](#): > > Yeah. Unbelievable. > > I will bet that the inquest into the kid’s death will, among other things, recommend that all police cruisers be equipped with Tasers. Mark my words. That is a good idea; if it is implemented, you just have to be aware that the decline in “Police shoot unbalanced person” stories will be matched by a rise in “Police taze six-year-old” stories. Still a net gain in my book. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/50 "2013-07-29T19:19:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s not so apparent to me. Well, sure, but _that’s_ the debate. As far as I can tell, they gave the armed man plenty of time to comply with reasonable and well-repeated instructions before opening fire; you can agree or disagree, as can **Jimmy Chitwood** or anyone else – but either way, it’s irrelevant that I find crazy people more frightening than rational ones. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/51 "2013-07-29T19:20:53Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That is a good idea; if it is implemented, you just have to be aware that the decline in “Police shoot unbalanced person” stories will be matched by a rise in “Police taze six-year-old” stories. Still a net gain in my book. Although again, that’s not the kind of thing that should happen regularly if the police are trained well. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/52 "2013-07-29T19:25:35Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, sure, but _that’s_ the debate. As far as I can tell, they gave the armed man plenty of time to comply with reasonable and well-repeated instructions before opening fire; you can agree or disagree, as can **Jimmy Chitwood** or anyone else – but either way, it’s irrelevant that I find crazy people more frightening than rational ones. If the police see it as their duty to shoot people who are not an imminent threat to anyone, that is a serious problem. > [@Marley23](#): > > Although again, that’s not the kind of thing that should happen regularly if the police are trained well. It’s a lot easier to hand out Tasers than to train every officer in their responsible use and to have them abide by that training. Taser abuse can be minimized, but eliminating it is too much to hope for. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/53 "2013-07-29T19:33:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If the police see it as their duty to shoot people who are not an imminent threat to anyone, that is a serious problem. If they see it as their duty to shoot knife-wielding people without first giving eminently reasonable and duly repeated instructions, I’d agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/54 "2013-07-29T19:35:19Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It’s a lot easier to hand out Tasers than to train every officer in their responsible use and to have them abide by that training. It would also be pretty easy to teach (Toronto) police how to close trolley doors from the outside, thereby confining the perp inside and reducing further the chance of injury to others. All it takes is a push of a button, a button located on the _outside_ of the trolley - trolley drivers do it all the time, when they stop for a coffee for example. (In any case, the trolley driver was there at the scene. _He_ could have told them how to do it) In fact, considering that a significant percentage of these types of incidents take place on buses, trolleys, etc.\* (in Toronto, at least), it’s the type of thing that might have, maybe even _should_ have, been anticipated. \*no cites, but I stand by it ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/55 "2013-07-29T19:41:19Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > In the part you copy-and-pasted, I mentioned that _I’d_ be more frightened by a knife-wielding man who happened to be mentally ill or on drugs than by a knife-wielding man who happened to be obstinate. Well, yes, that’s what you said. And you said that in response to **Human Action** ’s mentioning that often in these kinds of incidents the lunatic is an actual lunatic. And he mentioned that in response to your saying that this particular individual needed to be shot because of his terrible judgment in this particular case. I don’t think it’s unreasonable that I assumed you weren’t changing the subject entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/56 "2013-07-29T19:48:38Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > If they see it as their duty to shoot knife-wielding people without first giving eminently reasonable and duly repeated instructions, I’d agree with you. And if they don’t shoot them, then…what? Toronto descends into anarchy? What dire fate was avoided by shooting this man? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/57 "2013-07-29T19:49:38Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Well, yes, that’s what you said. And you said that in response to **Human Action** ’s mentioning that often in these kinds of incidents the lunatic is an actual lunatic. And he mentioned that in response to your saying that this particular individual needed to be shot because of his terrible judgment in this particular case. I don’t think it’s unreasonable that I assumed you weren’t changing the subject entirely. I’m not saying it was unreasonable of you; I don’t fault you at all, and I therefore certainly don’t mind clarifying that _how frightening I’d find a knife-wielding lunatic_ happens to be a separate issue from _whether this particular individual needed to be shot._ ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/58 "2013-07-29T19:55:02Z")
I have seen cops running away from bands of gun toting criminals and abandoning civilians to those criminals so my expectations are low. But in a more controlled situation, I expect the cops to do everything they can to avoid killing someone. Against someone armed with a knife, I don’t expect them to shoot unless the guy with the knife is charging one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/59 "2013-07-29T19:55:33Z")
Which whips us right back around to my initial question, which was did the guy need to be shot because he was being frightening, or because he was being unreasonable? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/60 "2013-07-29T20:00:22Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > And if they don’t shoot them, then…what? Toronto descends into anarchy? What dire fate was avoided by shooting this man? Dunno. As I already noted – and you copy-and-pased when replying – I don’t even know what kind of irrational he was, or whether he was irrational. I don’t know what the grown man with a deadly weapon was going to do next, because I don’t know whether his profoundly unsettling choices were fueled by insane delusions or a clear-eyed desire to commit suicide by cop or something else entirely. I see him as a psychological black box – in that, behaviorally, he’s the dog in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825.md?page=4)