# Should we expect the police to show courage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825 "2013-07-29T16:56:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/141 "2013-08-21T15:23:53Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > An update: the police officer who fired the shots has been charged with second degree murder… It cannot be emphasized enough what a rare occurrence this is in Toronto for an officer to actually be charged with murder. It’s only happened one or two other times in my lifetime. Without the bystander videos there’s little doubt Forcillo would never have been charged. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/142 "2016-01-25T22:43:02Z")
Update: I apologize for bumping an old thread, but in this case maybe it is justified. The verdict is in: the cop found guilty today of attempted murder (but not guilty of murder). > **[National Post](https://nationalpost.com/category/news/)** > > Read the latest breaking news in Canada and the rest of the world. We bring all of today's top headlines and stories to your fingertips. An odd verdict to be sure. Seems that the jury felt that the first three shots were justified, but not the following six. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/143 "2016-01-26T01:28:33Z")
And one of the facts that has come out is that the officer in question had been under review for over-reliance on his gun: [Christie Blatchford: Forcillo’s use of gun brought police review a year before fatal shooting](http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/christie-blatchford-forcillos-use-of-gun-brought-triggered-police-review-a-year-before-fatal-shooting) > [@](#): > > Constable James Forcillo’s unusual reliance on his firearm brought him to the attention of a Toronto Police early warning system the year before he fatally shot Sammy Yatim on a downtown streetcar. > > Forcillo testified that he pulled his weapon about 12 times in three-and-a-half years on the job. > > The “early intervention” process, as it’s called, is aimed at identifying officers who, in the words of the professional standards unit, “may be at risk of entering the disciplinary process.” > > An officer who points his Glock .40 calibre semi-automatic gun at a person three times within a rolling 12-month period is the trigger for the early warning system to kick in and issue an alert. > > At the time, the 32-year-old officer would have been working in the downtown 14 Division almost three years. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/144 "2016-01-27T21:13:42Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Risking a police officer’s life makes little sense. > > I want to see one of you take a knife away from somebody. > A gun, maybe. But a knife? Seems pretty unlikely to me. Consider all the none lethal weapons they could have used, stun grenades, tear gas and my favourite boredom, no one was at risk they could have talked him down for as long as it took. The outcome now is murder by cowards and they should stand trial ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/145 "2016-01-27T21:16:23Z")
They did. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/146 "2016-01-27T21:22:24Z")
There was a situation in the house behind mine there had been a report of a gun on the property. Yes armed police were involved but they remained hidden while our unarmed local policeman knocked the door and asked them to step outside for a chat which they did. the armed police entered the building and found a plastic toy gun. All ended peacefully ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/147 "2016-01-27T22:28:29Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > Consider all the none lethal weapons they could have used, stun grenades, tear gas and my favourite boredom, no one was at risk they could have talked him down for as long as it took. The outcome now is murder by cowards and they should stand trial The fellow in this case stood trial and was just convicted of attempted murder. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/148 "2016-01-27T22:34:08Z")
I don’t see what is unreasonable about this. If the criminal is holding a weapon and doesn’t obey, just put him out of our misery so we can get on with our lives. I don’t expect a police officer to put themselves at risk to protect the criminal who is trying to kill them. I know police are getting a bad rap for being trigger happy, but I’ve seen a LOT of videos where the police put themselves in extreme danger by NOT shooting a criminal even though they are completely justified in doing so. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/149 "2016-01-28T01:38:54Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I don’t see what is unreasonable about this. > > If the criminal is holding a weapon and doesn’t obey, just put him out of our misery so we can get on with our lives. I don’t expect a police officer to put themselves at risk to protect the criminal who is trying to kill them. I know police are getting a bad rap for being trigger happy, but I’ve seen a LOT of videos where the police put themselves in extreme danger by NOT shooting a criminal even though they are completely justified in doing so. You are missing the point nobody was in any danger, he was standing on an empty bus the police were in no danger ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/150 "2016-01-28T10:26:30Z")
> [@Sanity\_Challenged](#): > > The average human runs at just over 24 feet per second. In the video, it seems the police are a bit closer than 24 feet away, although the aggressor would have had to navigate the stairs and work up to speed from a walk, so he was probably at least a couple seconds away if he decided to go for an all out kamikaze charge. Could they have moved 25’ away giving themselves some ‘decision making’ room and also possibly de-escalating the situation while they were at it? Hey, if people were on the bus being held hostage and they had a shot, then they should take it. But if they were only worried about themselves and had the option to back away to remove themselves from immediate harm, then they should have taken it until they had a way to better handle the situation. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825/151 "2016-02-01T19:24:24Z")
If they move too far back they risk the possibility of the guy getting off the bus and fleeing. Now you are in a foot chase with a guy with a knife. Not a good thing. I’m not suggesting the cop is without blame but there is always more to these things than first meets the eye. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-expect-the-police-to-show-courage/664825.md?page=7)