# Should we get rid of the Ph.D.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2007, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192 "2007-01-24T02:14:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/1 "2007-01-24T02:14:08Z")
Since the somewhat less critical issue of the thesis is in play, let’s tackle the truly relevant question: the need for a degree that … :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/2 "2007-01-24T02:19:34Z")
…establishes a level of commitment to formally understanding an extremely complex universe. This undertaking is not for the dilettante. It takes professionalism and a deep dedication. So no, we should not get rid of the Ph.D. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/3 "2007-01-24T02:23:51Z")
Don’t parody threads need to have a link to the original? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/4 "2007-01-24T02:37:12Z")
Ok. I’ll bite. Who will do the scientific research? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/5 "2007-01-24T02:43:10Z")
Yeah, let’s see…biology and its subdisciplines (ecology, medical biology, molecular biology, etc.,) chemistry, physics, astronomy, climatology, geography, geology, mathematics, and probably a hundred more that I’m missing. Why would you get rid of a degree system that helps ensure that the people who pursue these studies formally are qualified to do so? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/6 "2007-01-24T03:50:19Z")
“We don’t drink Duff, we drink PhuD!” ---
**Author:** ![According\_to\_Pliny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@According\_to\_Pliny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/According_to_Pliny)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/7 "2007-01-24T20:02:12Z")
If you want to get rid of the pesky Ph.D. (and yes, I’ve got mine, but I don’t _ever_ use the title) would be to create a title even more selective and snootier. This would keep all the Ph.D.s off the streets for a couple more years of school, at great benefit to the public at large. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/8 "2007-01-24T20:13:43Z")
Is the OP truly ignorant of the purpose of and rationale for the Ph.D., as he seems to imply? ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/9 "2007-01-24T23:23:06Z")
I don’t think that getting rid of the Ph.D. makes any sense. However, there seems to be a wide gulf between the one to two year M.A./M.S. degree and the five to ten year process of getting a Ph.D. Masters usually require course work and perhaps a thesis, while the Ph.D. requires additional course work and examinations beyond the masters level, and the whole dissertation process. There are quite a few people who seem to make it to the “A.B.D.” (all but dissertation) level, and then stop. I think it might be useful to have some sort of degree recognizing highly advanced course work and study, without the substantial original research requirement of the Ph.D. dissertation. This might answer some of the concerns of those who propose [eliminating the dissertation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=405260). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/10 "2007-01-24T23:26:16Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] Is the OP truly ignorant of the purpose of and rationale for the Ph.D., as he seems to imply? [/QUOTE] No, he is not. And since he has offered no rational for getting rid of it, nor has he offered any alternative, it would seem pointless to participate in the debate. ---
**Author:** ![That\_creates\_more\_Q\_s\_than\_A\_s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/54ee81/32.png) [@That\_creates\_more\_Q\_s\_than\_A\_s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_creates_more_Q_s_than_A_s)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/11 "2007-01-24T23:28:26Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] Is the OP truly ignorant of the purpose of and rationale for the Ph.D., as he seems to imply? [/QUOTE] Purpose and rationale? What on earth would those be in this context, pray tell. Ph.D. is just an accidental designation of the church. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/12 "2007-01-24T23:38:27Z")
[QUOTE=Billdo] I don’t think that getting rid of the Ph.D. makes any sense. However, there seems to be a wide gulf between the one to two year M.A./M.S. degree and the five to ten year process of getting a Ph.D. Masters usually require course work and perhaps a thesis, while the Ph.D. requires additional course work and examinations beyond the masters level, and the whole dissertation process. There are quite a few people who seem to make it to the “A.B.D.” (all but dissertation) level, and then stop. I think it might be useful to have some sort of degree recognizing highly advanced course work and study, without the substantial original research requirement of the Ph.D. dissertation. This might answer some of the concerns of those who propose [eliminating the dissertation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=405260). [/QUOTE] I’ve seen one university (can’t remember which) that offers an M.A./M.S., a Ph.D., and an intermediate degree like you propose. I think it was denoted M.Phil., but I won’t swear to that. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/13 "2007-01-25T01:36:23Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] Yeah, let’s see…biology and its subdisciplines (ecology, medical biology, molecular biology, etc.,) chemistry, physics, astronomy, climatology, geography, geology, mathematics, and probably a hundred more that I’m missing. Why would you get rid of a degree system that helps ensure that the people who pursue these studies formally are qualified to do so? [/QUOTE] Not only that, but I’d say in all fields a Ph.D. is a useful basic qualification for being on a university faculty (apart from some lecturers, TAs, and so forth). It serves the simple purpose of narrowing the field, and of showing that the would-be prof has done some original work in the field. A master’s degree holder may or may not have done that; master’s programs vary widely. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/14 "2007-01-25T01:38:21Z")
[QUOTE=Fiveyearlurker] Ok. I’ll bite. Who will do the scientific research? [/QUOTE] I suppose the idea is that it would be master’s graduates who have shown special aptitude for that. But finding and growing those talents is essentially what Ph.D. programs are for, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/15 "2007-01-25T17:31:55Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] I suppose the idea is that it would be master’s graduates who have shown special aptitude for that. But finding and growing those talents is essentially what Ph.D. programs are for, isn’t it? [/QUOTE] I’ve known some people with PhDs who couldn’t research their way out of a paper bag, and I had one really smart guy working for me, with an Associates degree in CS, who was a great researcher. He might not have had the theory, but he had excellent ideas and was able to define and defend them. Not everyone can put off their earning potential to get advanced degrees. On the whole, PhDs are good training, and getting one is a demonstration of the self-motivation you need to do good research. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/16 "2007-01-25T17:38:01Z")
Um… dudes? Dudes? Yeah, okay, very funny. Ha ha. Joke’s over now… you can untie the bag. Um… Dudes? ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/17 "2007-01-26T15:00:14Z")
[QUOTE=Billdo] I don’t think that getting rid of the Ph.D. makes any sense. However, there seems to be a wide gulf between the one to two year M.A./M.S. degree and the five to ten year process of getting a Ph.D. Masters usually require course work and perhaps a thesis, while the Ph.D. requires additional course work and examinations beyond the masters level, and the whole dissertation process. There are quite a few people who seem to make it to the “A.B.D.” (all but dissertation) level, and then stop. I think it might be useful to have some sort of degree recognizing highly advanced course work and study, without the substantial original research requirement of the Ph.D. dissertation. This might answer some of the concerns of those who propose [eliminating the dissertation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=405260). [/QUOTE] My school, or at least my department, offers an intermediate degree called an [Engineer Degree](http://ite.gmu.edu/engineer/). I’m not pursuing it, but from what I understand it requires a project instead of original research, and does not have the qualifying and comprehensive exam requirements. From what I’ve heard, it’s often an alternative for people who have already done some Ph.D. coursework, but fail the qualifying exams. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/18 "2007-01-26T15:42:03Z")
[QUOTE=ultrafilter] I’ve seen one university (can’t remember which) that offers an M.A./M.S., a Ph.D., and an intermediate degree like you propose. I think it was denoted M.Phil., but I won’t swear to that. [/QUOTE] This is common in the UK. Postgraduate degrees (at least in Computer Science) are Taught MSc, MSc by Research (or MPhil) and PhD. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/19 "2007-01-26T19:23:46Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Since the somewhat less critical issue of the thesis is in play, let’s tackle the truly relevant question: the need for a degree that … :dubious: [/QUOTE] I’d say the need for J.Ds is more than dubious-despite having 1 million lawyers, we are not better off. J.Ds are also expensive and time-consuming..i’d say-get rid of them! ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192/20 "2007-01-26T20:06:06Z")
I wouldn’t get rid of the PhD. I would like it, however, if every professional organization and employer would sit back and ask themselves what qualifications a PhD really brings over a lesser degree. I suspect the answer for many cases is “not much”, and they shouldn’t really look at a doctorate any different than they would the equivalent amount of time work experience, and unless the dissertation was particularly applicable to the new field, likely somewhat less so. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-get-rid-of-the-ph-d/389192.md?page=2)