Should we have bailed out the homeowners instead of the banks?

Remember, the requirement wasn’t that minority borrowers got loans, just that they got them at the same level as non-minority ones. If banks wrote crap loans to everyone, this might actually become true. However, CRA passed over a decade before the crisis. I don’t know how well the banks did - perhaps they really did clean up their act, and the subprime problem started when the market for mortgages grew, and also because low interest rates reduced the profitability of prime mortgages.
BTW, the lenders did not really clean up their act. In New York minority districts got a lot more subprimes written than non-minority neighborhoods with similar income levels.

If we allowed others to buy insurance on their house, and their policies say they get Y, then they would pay out People * Y. But that isn’t the problem. Insurance companies can’t have reserves for the worst imaginable catastrophe, just the most likely ones. If you let everyone buy insurance on any house, you are increasing the cost of various scenarios. If there are H houses and P people, in the current system worst case - where everything burns - is H * Y. In the other case it is H * P * Y. We really don’t do this because while it is possible for a person to burn down his own house for insurance, there are negatives and it is relatively easy to catch them, while if everyone in town has a financial incentive for burning down someone else’s house, arson will increase.
Before the crash I believe there was more insurance outstanding on bank debt than there was money in the world. There was no central clearing house, so no one could raise a red flag about it.

I think the idea was that the deadbeats could afford the low teaser payments, and refinance into other low teaser payments before they rose to the point where they couldn’t afford them. People are also hopeful that they’d get raises and stuff. It is usually good policy to buy as much house as you can afford, because I can testify that after ten years your payments look a lot better thanks to inflation.
But here is the example I was thinking of using. Say you have a bunch of relatives of various income levels. Your deadbeat relatives - actually those with crap jobs - know that they will have to pay more for a loan. Say you can give loans at 3, 5 and 7% depending on the income level. Now, say you have found some suckers to buy loans from you. Since the 7% loans make them more money, they want them. Are they safe? No problem, you say, these are all my relatives. In any case I’ll mix in some safer 3% loans too. Sure one of the 7% guys may lose his job and default, but that will be a tiny portion of the loans package. There is nothing to worry about.
All is fine, except that the low income relatives work on the line for a factory, which suddenly closes. Lots of them default, and the value of the loan package suddenly goes south. The people with the loans don’t get most of their income any more, reduce their expenditures, and stop buying. Now the 5% people, who are shopkeepers, take an income hit and start to default. And so it snowballs. A lot of the people getting foreclosed on now are not deadbeats, but people who got their mortgages legitimately and now can’t pay them due to being laid off from the crash.
In any case, the mortgage companies got more money the worse the loans were - and the higher the interest rates they received - and the salesmen got bigger commissions selling loans to deadbeats. There was little downside so long as the market stayed strong, the number of defaults was low, and the paper could be shoveled into the hands of the investors. They made more money selling to deadbeats than to those with high credit scores, and send the risk elsewhere.

If interest rates are higher, the cost of owning a home increases, there are fewer people who can afford to buy a given home, and with fewer buyers prices decline.
Yes, after a recession it is standard policy to lower interest rates to increase the money supply and make it cheaper for consumers and businesses to buy more. That is from Friedman, but even pure Keynsians agree these days. The problem was that Greenspan did not increase interest rates as the economy recovered, possibly because we were heading into the 2004 election and a slowdown would be seen as a bad thing for Bush. I’m not saying Bush (or someone who understood this) told Greenspan what to do. Not necessary, any more than Romney has to tell his buddies what to do with their Super PAC money.

The Fed IS the lender of last resort. In a fractional reserve system this is a necessity.

By law if a bank is chartered to operate here it is a US bank. It serves US customers and a run on a bank with US customers is the situation to avoid. It must operate to US regulations and laws.

I am a liberal by any measure and I see frustration on the part of others regarding the banking situation. I see liberals taking Ron Paul’s position on the Fed. This is preposterous.

The Fed made all these emergency loans to banks who posted sound collateral and the Fed profited from these loans. The profit in 2009-10 amounted to $125 billion and that entire amount was returned to taxpayers. The Fed is the largest single contributor to the Treasury (although now the Treasury pays coupon to the Fed on bills/notes).

Unfortunately, the Fed was run by a Rand acolyte named Greenspan for a long time who neglected his regulatory duties. His philosophy was that “markets always self correct”. This naive philosophy is our enemy - not central banking and its rescue capability.

Remember when Beanie Babies were big? Some of them were going for outrageous sums, their prices were increasing, and I even read about people buying them to retire on.

Lend the friend $100 to buy Beanie Babies, and sell the loan assuring the buyers that even if the guy defaults they can take the Beanie Baby and sell it for more than the loan value. Then all of a sudden the Beanie Baby is worth $20. They guy stops paying, says come and take the doll, and loan purchaser gets screwed.

As I said above, the decision to bailout the banks was the right one.

But as the lender of last resort, the government should own the banks right now!!! The taxpayers bore all the risk. But fine, that will piss everyone off, so at the very least I would have settled for the government lending freely but in such a manner as to allow the banks to merely tread water during the crisis, to give them the ability to get back onto their own feet. They have not done so. That’s what’s driving everyone crazy.

In the 1970s congress passed the Community Reinvestment Act which prohibited redlining. Banks had gotten it into their heads that blacks were bad credit risks and homes in black neighborhoods were insecure assets so they wouldn’t finance home purchases in black neighborhoods. As a part of this policy, the GSEs bought or guaranteed subprime mortgages from these neighorhoods. In this case, subprime meant less than great credit but you still needed to meet the loan to value ratios (down payment), income to expense ratios, fully document your income, expenses and assets and conform in all other ways besides the credit rating requirement which was lowered for borrowers in poor black neighborhoods. The interst rate charged was higher and over time people realized that you could make more money from these mortgages because the increased interest rate more than made up for the increased default rate. It turns out that even poor credit black folks don’t want to get evicted from their home.

Fast forward 40 years and the Republicans are trying to blame a 1970’s peice of legislation for the subprime crisis when banks were not being pressured to lend to black neighborhoods under this 40 year old law. In fact the majority of subprime mortgages were originated by lenders that are not subject to CRA.

The way the CRA contributed to the crash is that it provided enough data that the actuaries on Wall Street thought they could model how subprime mortgages would react under different economic scenarios. And then they applied these models which applied to otherwise conforming mortgages on primary residences to other types of subprime mortgages.

Classically insurance requires that you suffer the loss before they will write you a policy. Otherwise you are correct, these were largely used for speculation. Speculation in and of itself can provide a useful market function but in this case speculation wasn’t just driving the market, it WAS the market.

Aside from the flood plains issue (if you insured 100 homes in a flood plain with flood insurance, you aren’t really insuring 100 different homes, you are insuring a single flood plain), the reason you can slap AAA on a tranche of subprime mortgages is that they would take a bunch of mortgages and put them in a trust and the trust would issue several certificates with different seniority and on top of that they would frequently purchase some form of credit support in the form of insurance ofr credit default swaps.

If the interest rate is high enough, you can absorb a lot of defaults.

Thats what happens with bubbles. The bottom falls out.

What do you mean?

I think you are referring to this: Maiden Lane Transactions - Wikipedia
http://newyorkfed.org/markets/maidenlane.html

I might be misreading this but our financial system recovered sufficiently so that we are not losing a lot of money on this and in every case our collateral seems to be worth more than the remaining balance of the loans.

cite? 16 trillion sounds like a lot.

TARP has a recoupment provision that puts any of the loosses from TARP on the banking industry. The Fed reserve actions are (AFAICT) at least breaking even. Where did our bailout actually cost the taxpayer money?

+1 People don’t blame Greenspan and his ideology enough.

There was some fraud but on paper everyone “claimed” to be able to pay it back.

No it had very little to do with taxsation and spending. Bernanke raised rates again.

That’s pretty darn close. Now imagine if the guy that ends up holding the bag borrowed abunch of money from you and you borrowed a lot of that money from me and so on and so on. We’re all exposed.

They were paying a lot of people very large bonuses.

Can you point to unrecoverable losses that have been sustained?

Yes the American taxpayer took all the risk and they were charging very low interest rates and perhaps they should have extracted more from the industry but I would have been happy enough if they wouldn’t send millions of dollars to Washington DC to prevent Obama from enforcing regulations and staffing the CFPB.

Just thought of a better (I hope) answer for this. As you know, return on investments always depends in large extent on the risk involved. T-bills are safe with a low interest rate, junk bonds are risky with a high interest rate. If someone tells you that they can guarantee a 10% return per year with no risk, you say “Thank you Mr. Madoff, but I’ll pass.”

Lending to deadbeats is risky, and so demands a high interest rate, which the deadbeats will pay, not doing better elsewhere. If the lender can get an immediate reward for writing this kind of loan, and is able to pawn it off on someone else, the lender’s risk is minimal, assuming they don’t keep a lot of this paper.

The problem is that the people buying this stuff have risk allocation budgets. If you go to a financial planner, the first thing he asks (after your bank balance :slight_smile: ) is how much risk are you willing to accept. If the bonds were rates low, higher risk in line with their return, their market would be reduced. The scam came from the banks figuring out how to mix this stuff with other bonds to get AAA ratings - high return, low risk, and thus a huge market. Like suckers everywhere, buyers were clamoring to be taken. So you see, the more deadbeats, the more high interest loans, the more sales, the more profit. That is why the mortgage brokers didn’t reluctantly sell to deadbeats, they recruited deadbeats.