# Should we hold judges personally accountable for their rulings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127 "2019-09-12T20:55:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/21 "2019-09-13T05:59:42Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > If memory serves, it was actually six months in jail and three years’ probation. You are correct. I was wrong. He served 3 months and had three years’ probation. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/22 "2019-09-13T07:14:58Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > 6 months may not have been enough, but you don’t want it changed to 50 years (if it should be, for example, 10) simply because everyone on twitter is talking about it. No, I’d want it changed to 50 years (or life without parole, for personal preference) just as a principle. Or else rape culture never ends. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/23 "2019-09-13T07:33:57Z")
Fuck no. Next question? ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/24 "2019-09-13T07:43:48Z")
Archie Simonson got himself recalled back in 1977 in Madison, Wisconsin for victim blaming a 15 year old rape victim, who got raped in high school by another high school student and giving the rapist a light sentence. > **[Rape Views Spur Drive to Recall Wisconsin Judge](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1977/06/11/rape-views-spur-drive-to-recall-wisconsin-judge/10929713-4e3c-4b5a-9781-7ee55ac49aa1/?noredirect=on)** ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/25 "2019-09-13T07:43:51Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > This is the real problem with focussing on revenge on the judge. What people should really be using their energy on is getting the law changed to allow appeals against sentence. > > When this thread started, I asked if appeals against sentence are allowed in the US, or are barred as a form of double jeopardy. The answer I got from law-talking US Dopers was that sentence appeals are constitutional, but are not common > > Alright then. Give the prosecutor the power to appeal light sentences. Make the prosecutor have to advance good arguments for a higher sentence, based on the statutory provisions governing sentences. Give the defence the power to try to rebut those arguments, based on legal principles. Then have the appellate court rule. > > If you want to ensure a just sentence in **all cases** , not just the ones where a pretty white girl is raped at a fancy university (not trying to discount her experience, but that’s what seems to have triggered the intense media coverage here), then change the law to allow for a systemic review of sentences that don’t meet the necessary legal standards. That way, you can have principled review in every case of a light sentence, not just the ones that catch the media attention. And it gives the defence the power to appeal what seems to be an excessive sentence, also a valuable measure. > > All the talk about recalling the judge here “because it will make the other judges sit up and take notice” really is about the same as saying “be careful outdoors, you don’t want to be struck by lightning”. The media pack and the intense scrutiny doesn’t happen with every case of a light sentence, so it’s not really a systemic remedy. All it tells the judges is to be careful not to get a mob mad at you, for whatever reason. Here, it was a sentence the mob thought was too light. In another case, say a case involving political protests, the mob might find a sentence too heavy. There’s not predicting what the mob will get upset about. And in any even, that’s not what we want judges to do. We want them to sentence according to the laws and the facts, not worry whether what they think is the just and appropriate sentence will get the mob angry at them. > > Giving the prosecutor the power to appeal light sentences is a true systemic remedy. Coming from a background where the Judiciary stood its ground against a colonial governments wishes and later those of dictators, I find the concept of legally permitted consequences for ordinary and proper judicial actions to be terrifying. There is literally nothing in the Brock Turner case which indicated the judge acted improperly. Yet he has had to suffer consequences, professional and social. That is going to have far bigger ramifications for a society than whether some dude gets to coach tennis players. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/26 "2019-09-13T08:14:08Z")
I didn’t really like the recall election, and I don’t like this either. Tell me when it starts happening to reactionary judges who’ve never seen a maximum sentence they didn’t like, and maybe I’ll change my mind. Until then, it sounds like a fine way for the country with the highest incarceration rate in the world to keep winning that prize. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/27 "2019-09-13T12:13:21Z")
Matthew 7:1 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/28 "2019-09-13T12:22:41Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Agreed. Legally responsible? No, of course not. Their job is to rule on the law. They should be protected - outside corrupt practices - from sanction while doing that. > > But there’s legal consequences and social consequences. If enough judges lose jobs coaching - or are generally social sanctioned for their rulings - then perhaps they’re out of step with the times and it’s a sign that laws may need some updating. This is pretty much how I feel. Social consequences are part of the toolset society can use to improve and become more just. People who uphold or otherwise aid or tolerate terrible things, even if it’s technically “legal”, might be criticized and even lose friends and social privileges for it. There are consequences to every decision. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/29 "2019-09-13T12:41:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is pretty much how I feel. Social consequences are part of the toolset society can use to improve and become more just. People who uphold or otherwise aid or tolerate terrible things, even if it’s technically “legal”, might be criticized and even lose friends and social privileges for it. There are consequences to every decision. What else would you blithely apply a statement like “there are consequences to every decision” to? Underage drinking? Teenage pregnancy? Opioid use? Undocumented immigrants who brought their children to America and now face possible separation? Do you so readily dismiss the second and third order effects of taking a “choices have consequences” approach to all those issues? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/30 "2019-09-13T12:46:56Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > What else would you blithely apply a statement like “there are consequences to every decision” to? > > Underage drinking? Teenage pregnancy? Opioid use? Undocumented immigrants who brought their children to America and now face possible separation? > > Do you so readily dismiss the second and third order effects of taking a “choices have consequences” approach to all those issues? I don’t think it’s useful to try and compare unavoidable physiological & biological consequences with those created and caused solely by human will. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/31 "2019-09-13T12:53:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If it was a former cop, professional baseball player or FedEx delivery driver, those remarks on the public record would be fair for people to consider, right? Why should a judge have special dispensation to _not_ have his public statements considered? Honestly, the thread kind of ended here. I find this argument unassailable. Judge Persky is not being held accountable for the specific of his ruling as a judge, he’s being held accountable for public comments he made in the course of making a ruling. Comments that, it is indisputably true, suggest a cavalier and backwards attitude towards sexual assault, a statistically significant threat for teenage girls. Why should the parents ignore that? > [@Northern Piper](#): > > This is the real problem with focusing on revenge on the judge. What people should really be using their energy on is getting the law changed to allow appeals against sentence. But this isn’t a case of revenge; that is a wild mischaracterization of this event. This is parents deciding they do not want a man coaching their teenage daughters, and the reason they don’t want him coaching their teenage daughters is that he made comments strongly indicating he doesn’t take rape seriously. They are acting in their capacity to ensure their daughters are being supervised by adults of decent character, whose attitudes are appropriate for close contact with teenage girls. I have teenage girls and I would absolutely not want them coached by Persky. It’s great to change unjust law, but with due respect, what the hell does that have to do with a parent’s IMMEDIATE concern about who’s coaching their kid? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/32 "2019-09-13T13:00:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t think it’s useful to try and compare unavoidable physiological & biological consequences with those created and caused solely by human will. How we respond to murderers, rapists, and other people who have done terrible things is just as much a matter of psychology and biology as anything else I listed. We are a social species. I think it’s useful to examine how we can be blind to our own prejudices. Just consider this: the rich white kid has already gotten off. The outrage that got this judge recalled is part and parcel of the system that ensures people from marginalized backgrounds end up receiving stiffer penalties for similar crimes, up and including to being sentenced to death in disproportionate numbers. Different sides, same coin. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/33 "2019-09-13T13:02:06Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > What else would you blithely apply a statement like “there are consequences to every decision” to? > > Underage drinking? Teenage pregnancy? Opioid use? Undocumented immigrants who brought their children to America and now face possible separation? > > Do you so readily dismiss the second and third order effects of taking a “choices have consequences” approach to all those issues? Of course there are consequences to every decision, including those things you mentioned. I don’t see how that conflicts with anything I’ve said. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/34 "2019-09-13T13:09:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Of course there are consequences to every decision, including those things you mentioned. I don’t see how that conflicts with anything I’ve said. Got it. I say “there is an opioid crisis, people are dying, we should be outfitting police and EMTs with Naloxone.” And you say… what? “Hey man, choices have consequences.” Or do you suddenly feel like we should evaluate the broader implications of such a policy? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/35 "2019-09-13T13:10:14Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > How we respond to murderers, rapists, and other people who have done terrible things is just as much a matter of psychology and biology as anything else I listed. We are a social species. > > I think it’s useful to examine how we can be blind to our own prejudices. Just consider this: the rich white kid has already gotten off. The outrage that got this judge recalled is part and parcel of the system that ensures people from marginalized backgrounds end up receiving stiffer penalties for similar crimes, up and including to being sentenced to death in disproportionate numbers. > > Different sides, same coin. I don’t think it is useful because the first three things you listed are going to happen no matter what people’s attitudes are, while the fourth only happens because of people’s attitudes, which can change. Different sides, different coins. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/36 "2019-09-13T13:10:35Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t think it’s useful to try and compare unavoidable physiological & biological consequences with those created and caused solely by human will. in the cases of rape, you’d be absolutely spot on. How about just any old unwanted pregnancy though? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/37 "2019-09-13T13:16:05Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Got it. I say “there is an opioid crisis, people are dying, we should be outfitting police and EMTs with Naloxone.” And you say… what? “Hey man, choices have consequences.” > > Or do you suddenly feel like we should evaluate the broader implications of such a policy? “Choices have consequences” is not the end-all final response to every single circumstance, IMO. It is in this one, though. IMO, of course. Negative social consequences for immoral uses of power are entirely appropriate, in my view. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/38 "2019-09-13T13:22:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Choices have consequences” is not the end-all final response to every single circumstance, IMO. It is in this one, though. IMO, of course. Negative social consequences for immoral uses of power are entirely appropriate, in my view. I dislike outrage-based social consequences. People, all of us, are fickle. I would rather see a judge who makes bad rulings impeached or censured by an appellate court or a judicial review committee. I hate the idea of putting people into sensitive positions where they must make incredibly difficult decisions that virtually no one else has to make, and effectively making them the sin eaters for the rest of us. I hate (the idea of) elected judges; I hate (the idea of) judicial recall elections; I hate social shaming as a crutch for social, legal, and economic reform. Personal opinion, based in part on how all those things have been historically used and twisted to create just the sort of NFBSKed up and racist society we have now. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/39 "2019-09-13T13:31:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Choices have consequences” is not the end-all final response to every single circumstance, IMO. It is in this one, though. IMO, of course. Negative social consequences for immoral uses of power are entirely appropriate, in my view. No one has said that “choices have consequences” is the end all but what happens is that you then have people coming in saying that someone else needs to pick up the slack, EXCUSING the actions that caused said issue. Liberals tend to do this a whole lot more than conservatives. If you go back to the personal responsibility (that you only posted in a few times to be snarky), you will see that the excusing of whatever behavior caused the problem only becomes an issue when you are expecting someone else to pay to get you out of that consequence … In the end, if we all accepted the consequences of our actions, there would be a lot less consequences handed out because consequences also teach valuable lessons. So sure the judge can in turn be judged by his action or inaction. Whether or not that makes good policy is completely up for discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/40 "2019-09-13T13:40:57Z")
The trick to this question is, “to what extent”? Are we talking about one poor decision or a pattern of reckless leniency or harsh sentencing based on race? I support the latter, but the former is very problematic. It could just be one mistake in judgment. Everyone makes them. On the other hand, if there is a pattern of ridiculously lenient sentencing of white offenders as opposed to minorities, that is just cause for dismissal as far as I’m concerned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127.md?page=3)