# Should we hold judges personally accountable for their rulings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127 "2019-09-12T20:55:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/101 "2019-09-18T17:19:31Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Why would it not apply to this crime? > > Being in the presence of a drunk person is not an unusual circumstance for many people, and it seems to me that it’s a situation which is indeed likely to recur. The fact that the answer to the question is “no” doesn’t mean it doesn’t apply; it means that it does apply, and IMO should have counted against Turner. > Entirely a judgement call; and reads rather as if it’s based on ‘he’s being honest that he doesn’t think it was his fault.’ If Turner doesn’t think it was his fault, then he seems far more likely to do it again. > > Entirely a judgement call; and I don’t see the basis for calling it that way. > > In addition, while all of those items are indeed to be considered, is there anything saying they all have to be weighted equally – in particular that the damage caused to the victim by the crime has to be weighted exactly equally with the damage expected to be caused to the perpetrator by the sentence? It does not apply because there were no unusual circumstances so it should not factor into the sentence. There all judgement calls, that is why they are being done by a judge. Just because Turner did not think he assaulted the girl, does not mean he does not regret that it happened. I do not see any mention of what weight the judge is supposed to give to each criteria. However, if the damage done to the victim was the only criteria to be considered than there would be no need for the other criteria. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/102 "2019-09-18T17:30:30Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I don’t think so. The judge may have mentioned it but I don’t anyone actually thinks he considered those mitigating circumstances against Turner on the sentence. > > News flash. Going to prison sucks. You know what else sucks? Being raped. > > Strange almost no one else felt that way. From the victim > Oh and his statement lied about her condition saying she was concious when eyewitnesses testified she was not. And he admitted he was ticketed for underage drinking before but that did not deter him from drinking (didn’t the Judge say he was not likely to re-commit the crime? Even though he had a history re-commiting crimes) and later he said he never had trouble with law enforcement before (Forgot about that ticket for underage drinking?). But he does talk about regretting that’s night . . . oh wait he regrets it because of the negative effects on HIS life. He lost 2 jobs. Boo Hoo. Papers write articles about him. Boo Hoo. 11 pages and he manages only TWO SENTENCES acknowledging his actions hurt her. He spent more time in the letter denying her raped her. Sincere? Yeah. I sincerely think I did nothing wrong. Explain how that should mitigate his sentence in his favor. How do you know the judge did not consider it? He said he did, he quoted her statement extensively in the ruling. It is the judge’s job to take into account both impact on the victim and the defendant. He didn’t do that because he wanted to. The judge said he did not believe he assaulted her but is remorseful because she was hurt. That seems consistent. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/103 "2019-09-18T17:40:28Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I cannot fathom how someone could, while beleiving themselves to be a good or just person, object to parents not wanting a rape apologist coaching their teenage daughters on a sports team. How someone can find it “morally abhorrent” that parents would object to putting in charge of their female children a man who feels that if a male illegally drinks alcohol and rapes said children, the illegal alcohol use should at least partially excuse his actions. > > You and puddlegum both seem intently, narrowly focused on whether what the judge did was technically legal. Yet no one in this thread, including the OP (me), or the parents petitioning to remove him as coach has stated that their position is based on him doing anything illegal; the objection is on moral and possibly ethical grounds. To make an analogy, in Rhode Island it’s actually legal to drug your spouse unconscious and then have sex with them, even if the two of you are separated and they’ve made it clear they no longer want sex with you under any circumstances. If parents objected to having their girls coached by a man who bragged about drugging and raping his wife until the divorce papers finally went through, arguing ‘but what he did was legal’ would make no sense at all. What I object to is calling a man a rape apologist despite the fact that he never did anything remotely close to that. It is possible to have a different opinion about the length of the sentence and whether he deserved parole, but this is not about a difference of opinion. This is about slandering someone for doing their job, then punishing him based on that slander. These parents do not sincerely believe that their children are in danger around him, or that he would let drunken college boys rape them during tennis practice. It is about punishing him for doing his job and following the law. This is a threat to the independence of the judiciary. It is not about “technically legal”, the best kind of legal, but the keystone of the judicial system, having a system that treats everyone equally before the law. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/104 "2019-09-18T18:49:05Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What I object to is calling a man a rape apologist despite the fact that he never did anything remotely close to that. > > It is possible to have a different opinion about the length of the sentence and whether he deserved parole, but this is not about a difference of opinion. This is about slandering someone for doing their job, then punishing him based on that slander. > > These parents do not sincerely believe that their children are in danger around him, or that he would let drunken college boys rape them during tennis practice. It is about punishing him for doing his job and following the law. This is a threat to the independence of the judiciary. It is not about “technically legal”, the best kind of legal, but the keystone of the judicial system, having a system that treats everyone equally before the law. Parents are free to register their displeasure in this way if they wish. This is just another tool society has available to punish the powerful when we think they’re out of line. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/105 "2019-09-18T19:18:56Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What I object to is calling a man a rape apologist despite the fact that he never did anything remotely close to that. > It is possible to have a different opinion about the length of the sentence and whether he deserved parole, but this is not about a difference of opinion. This is about slandering someone for doing their job, then punishing him based on that slander. As has been cited in this thread, he most certainly did. Giving an unrepentant rapist who won’t even take responsibility for his actions or admit that an unconscious person cannot give consent a slap on the wrist of a sentence because you don’t think the trauma he chose to inflict on the victim is as bad as his possible difficulty getting a job certainly qualifies someone as a rape apologist in my book. Saying that rape is no big deal, accepting an obviously insincere ‘repentance’, and sticking to that decision in spite of public outcry is not just ‘close to that’. Also, since this is a thread where legal specifics keep getting tossed around, I will note that everything I’ve posted here is written, not spoken, so if it was both untrue and defamatory it would be libel, not slander. If you’re going to be big on whether things are technically legal, please get your legal terms right when you throw them at other posters. > [@](#): > > These parents do not sincerely believe that their children are in danger around him, or that he would let drunken college boys rape them during tennis practice. So you think that they are lying when they state that they do believe that their children are in danger around him, notably when they state that they believe that, as a mandated reporter, he would be hesitant to report instances of drunken sexual assault (using a similar justification to what he used in the trial)? What do you base this assertion that they’re lying on, exactly, and what would their motivation for wanting to punish him be? You’re issuing a bold claim of a mass amount of outright dishonesty which doesn’t make sense, with no justification whatsoever. The bit about ‘let drunken college boys rape them during tennis practice’ is some nonsense that you made up yourself, it’s not actually in the petition or any of the parents claims, so of course they don’t believe it. Stating that people don’t believe claims they’ve never made and that they likely would disagree with if asked doesn’t add anything useful to a discussion - I’m sure the parents don’t sincerely believe he’d call in the Yakuza to steal their organs, but it’s silly to say it since they didn’t state such a thing. > [@](#): > > It is about punishing him for doing his job and following the law. This is a threat to the independence of the judiciary. It is not about “technically legal”, the best kind of legal, but the keystone of the judicial system, having a system that treats everyone equally before the law. Again - cite, please. Where exactly do they say that they wish to punish him ‘for doing his job and following the law’? If they don’t say so, where exactly are you getting this from? As has been cited in this thread, there was absolutely no law mandating that he rule as he did. There were factors that he was supposed to consider, but nothing mandating that he reach the conclusion that he did. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/106 "2019-09-18T20:22:42Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > How do you know the judge did not consider it? He said he did, he quoted her statement extensively in the ruling. There is no law requiring anyone to believe a judge just because they are a judge. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/107 "2019-09-18T20:27:27Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What I object to is calling a man a rape apologist despite the fact that he never did anything remotely close to that. > It is possible to have a different opinion about the length of the sentence and whether he deserved parole, but this is not about a difference of opinion. This is about slandering someone for doing their job, then punishing him based on that slander. I’m not sure you understand what slander is. > [@puddleglum](#): > > These parents do not sincerely believe that their children are in danger around him, or that he would let drunken college boys rape them during tennis practice. It is about punishing him for doing his job and following the law. This is a threat to the independence of the judiciary. It is not about “technically legal”, the best kind of legal, but the keystone of the judicial system, having a system that treats everyone equally before the law. So they are all liars and you _know_ this? How do you know this? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/108 "2019-09-18T20:48:55Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Just because Turner did not think he assaulted the girl, does not mean he does not regret that it happened… True. He got caught, after all. He almost certainly regrets winding up all over the news, in court, and, however briefly, in jail. That’s not in the least the same thing as recognizing that he did something wrong. And recognizing that he did something wrong is far more likely to stop him from doing it again than just recognizing that getting busted isn’t fun – especially if he now expects a light sentence even if he gets caught a second time. > [@puddleglum](#): > > I do not see any mention of what weight the judge is supposed to give to each criteria. However, if the damage done to the victim was the only criteria to be considered than there would be no need for the other criteria. > [@puddleglum](#): > > In total there are 14 applicable factors according to the law and 11 are favorable to Turner. It is therefore quite reasonable to grant him probation as part of his sentence. Aside from disagreement as to how many of those are actually favorable to Turner: You’re the one adding up factors as if the only thing that matters about any of them is how many checkmarks there are on one side or the other. Bad impact of crime on victim? Check. Bad impact of sentence on perpetrator? Check. Aha, that’s one check on each side, they must cancel out! No. It’s not right to just add up the number of checkmarks as if that’s all there is to it. > [@puddleglum](#): > > These parents do not sincerely believe that their children are in danger around him How on earth would you know that? And the question isn’t whether he’s going to rape them on the tennis court, or openly encourage somebody else to do so. The question is whether he’s going to advise girls that they shouldn’t report boys/men who harass them because doing so might mess the boys’ lives up, or to advise boys that it’s no big deal if they try to have sex with unwilling girls. An athletic coach for teenagers is in a particular sort of position of trust. And immediate physical danger isn’t the only sort of danger teenagers can be in. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/109 "2019-09-18T23:51:58Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > How do you know the judge did not consider it? He said he did, he quoted her statement extensively in the ruling. > > The judge said he did not believe he assaulted her but is remorseful because she was hurt. That seems consistent. Point number !. Actions speak louder than words and based on the sentence and the Judge’s deference to Turner I believe he put it in for purely legal reasons but did not consider it. Point number 2. Can you truly be remorseful if you do not take ownership of your actions? Is it your believe that merely typing “I’m sorry my actions hurt you.” is sufficient to show genuine remorse? Hell, he didn’t even say “I hurt you.” it was “my actions” As splinternews wrote > [@](#): > > Also notable is Turner’s use of the passive voice. Even when taking responsibility for the rape, Turner makes it sound like something that happened to him, rather than something he did. “I am the sole proprietor of what happened on the night that these people’s lives were changed forever,” he writes. A proper version of that sentence might read, “I am the sole proprietor of what happened on that night, and I changed the victim and her family’s lives forever.” > > Turner also writes, “It debilitates me to think that my actions have caused her emotional and physical stress that is completely unwarranted and unfair,” as if his actions were a separate, uncontrollable entity outside of his body. > > More than anything, Turner’s apology is devoid of any recognition of his incredibly privileged position. “I’ve lost my ability to obtain a Stanford degree,” he writes, as if an elite college degree is a right. “I’ve lost employment opportunity,” he adds, as if jobs are a given. “I’ve lost my reputation, and most of all, my life.” Apparently you give all deference to a sentence or two. I prefer to base my judgement on whole documents and the actions of people.judgement on the whole document. I notice you ignored (like the judge did) the lies and contradictions in his letter. Why don’t you look at those critically? ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/110 "2019-09-19T17:28:02Z")
I keep being told by fans of at-will employment that my boss can fire me any time for any reason that’s not a protected class, so I need to suck it up if I’m fired, e.g., for a twitter post made on my personal time. Last time I checked, being a judge wasn’t a protected class. If the question were re-phrased “should an employer be allowed to fire this person for these reasons” I’d hope for a consistent answer from any fans of at-will employment, just on that principle, and regardless of whether or not it’s “unfair”. If you are the employer, you can make a different decision. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/111 "2019-09-19T18:28:39Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > As has been cited in this thread, he most certainly did. Giving an unrepentant rapist who won’t even take responsibility for his actions or admit that an unconscious person cannot give consent a slap on the wrist of a sentence because you don’t think the trauma he chose to inflict on the victim is as bad as his possible difficulty getting a job certainly qualifies someone as a rape apologist in my book. Saying that rape is no big deal, accepting an obviously insincere ‘repentance’, and sticking to that decision in spite of public outcry is not just ‘close to that’. > > Also, since this is a thread where legal specifics keep getting tossed around, I will note that everything I’ve posted here is written, not spoken, so if it was both untrue and defamatory it would be libel, not slander. If you’re going to be big on whether things are technically legal, please get your legal terms right when you throw them at other posters. > > So you think that they are lying when they state that they do believe that their children are in danger around him, notably when they state that they believe that, as a mandated reporter, he would be hesitant to report instances of drunken sexual assault (using a similar justification to what he used in the trial)? What do you base this assertion that they’re lying on, exactly, and what would their motivation for wanting to punish him be? You’re issuing a bold claim of a mass amount of outright dishonesty which doesn’t make sense, with no justification whatsoever. > > The bit about ‘let drunken college boys rape them during tennis practice’ is some nonsense that you made up yourself, it’s not actually in the petition or any of the parents claims, so of course they don’t believe it. Stating that people don’t believe claims they’ve never made and that they likely would disagree with if asked doesn’t add anything useful to a discussion - I’m sure the parents don’t sincerely believe he’d call in the Yakuza to steal their organs, but it’s silly to say it since they didn’t state such a thing. > > Again - cite, please. Where exactly do they say that they wish to punish him ‘for doing his job and following the law’? If they don’t say so, where exactly are you getting this from? As has been cited in this thread, there was absolutely no law mandating that he rule as he did. There were factors that he was supposed to consider, but nothing mandating that he reach the conclusion that he did. This is plain dishonesty. He never said anything remotely like rape is no big deal. In fact he said the opposite. The parents have no rational fear. There is almost no chance a tennis coach will be the only guy these players choose to confide in if they are sexually assaulted, and if that ever happened he would be much more likely to report it given his notoriety. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/112 "2019-09-19T19:39:05Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is plain dishonesty. He never said anything remotely like rape is no big deal. In fact he said the opposite. > > The parents have no rational fear. There is almost no chance a tennis coach will be the only guy these players choose to confide in if they are sexually assaulted, and if that ever happened he would be much more likely to report it given his notoriety. Dude. Given the recent and not so recent revelations about sexual abuse of minors in sports, you’re going with this? It’s not enough to go “Eh, he’s probably fine, and if the girls do get assaulted there are probably going to be other adults around.” This former judge isn’t being punished. He’s just not getting a job coaching these underage girls in tennis, because the parents don’t trust him. There are plenty of other jobs out there that don’t involve underage girls, maybe he should get one of those. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/113 "2019-09-20T13:52:11Z")
Coming back to this thread because I’m wondering why so many people are focusing specifically on the fact that the students he would have coached are girls. I don’t get the impression that people are worried that he himself would rape them. And I can see that people are concerned that if they know his history, girls might not want to approach him to report rape or harassment; and that he might not react properly if they did. But isn’t anyone else concerned that, if he were coaching boys, he might give them the impression that active consent’s not necessary, or is only necessary because they might get in trouble? or that he might encourage the cultural tendency to consider male athletes as Very Important People who ought to be given considerable leeway in their behavior towards others? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/114 "2019-09-20T14:39:37Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is plain dishonesty. He never said anything remotely like rape is no big deal. In fact he said the opposite. I do believe that accusing other posters of dishonesty is against board rules, and it’s incredibly stupid to accuse someone of ‘dishonesty’ when they have direct quotes supporting their position already posted and linked to in the thread. “I have also considered the fact that he was legally intoxicated at the time of the incident… . And I think it is a factor that, when trying to assess moral culpability in this situation, is mitigating.” Just the fact that he thinks some jock getting drink mitigates his culpability for rape qualifies him as a rape apologist in my book, and that’s not the worst of what he said. While it’s certainly possible for someone to disagree with my position, your claim that I’m being ‘dishonest’ in some way for it is completely unsupportable and serves only to show the lack of support for your own position. > [@](#): > > The parents have no rational fear. There is almost no chance a tennis coach will be the only guy these players choose to confide in if they are sexually assaulted, and if that ever happened he would be much more likely to report it given his notoriety. You keep repeating this bald claim that the parents have no rational fear, but utterly fail to actually support it. Coming up with really specific scenarios that the parents did not actually name in their objection then using the fact that scenarios you invented are unlikely is nothing but a good demonstration of straman arguments are considered logical fallacies. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/115 "2019-09-20T15:02:28Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Coming back to this thread because I’m wondering why so many people are focusing specifically on the fact that the students he would have coached are girls… But isn’t anyone else concerned that, if he were coaching boys, People are focusing on that because it’s the real-world example that prompted the discussion; he got a job coaching a girls team, and parents objected to him in that job. I can’t see what considering the specific hypothetical of him coaching a boy’s team would add to the discussion; I think this set of parents would still object and their objections would be equally justified or unjustified in that case, so examining it doesn’t really change the arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/116 "2019-09-23T15:38:39Z")
Let’s take the judgeship issue out of the question. A high-school girls’ coach tweets, “Despite a history of underage drinking that he was once cited for, a boy who rapes a girl should get a lighter sentence because he is not as responsible for his actions when drunk.” Would you have a problem with the parents not wanting him to be the coach? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/117 "2019-09-23T15:56:29Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Do you think doing the same thing while sober would make him more or less morally culpable? The judge included that in his reasoning, which I noted you have omitted from your quote. I’ll grant it’s an ugly question to have to consider, whether a rapist is more or less morally culpable while seriously intoxicated, but rape is an ugly thing and so is having to sentence a rapist. the point is the law doesn’t (or shouldn’t!) accept “I was drunk” as an excuse or mitigating circumstance. You are responsible for getting yourself drunk, ergo you are fully responsible for whatever you do while in that condition. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/118 "2019-09-23T16:45:03Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > the point is the law doesn’t (or shouldn’t!) accept “I was drunk” as an excuse or mitigating circumstance. Then should it consider being stone-cold sober and doing the same thing to be an aggravating circumstance? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/119 "2019-09-23T22:10:09Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Then should it consider being stone-cold sober and doing the same thing to be an aggravating circumstance? No. It should be that if you choose to be drunk, you are as responsible for your actions as you are when sober. Or should we hold drunk drivers less responsible when killing someone with their cars than sober drivers? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127/120 "2019-09-23T22:32:58Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > No. It should be that if you choose to be drunk, you are as responsible for your actions as you are when sober. > > Or should we hold drunk drivers less responsible when killing someone with their cars than sober drivers? Well, see, that’s not a perfect analogy because people do accidentally kill people while driving, drunk and sober, and in that case those who do the deed while sober do tend to get less severe sentences than those who drink and drive. But then we’re not talking about an “accidental” rape, here. So, perhaps to frame this analogy better, we should consider how it would compare to intentionally driving one’s car into people while stone cold sober. In that sense, I would absolutely say the sober driver should be punished more severely. Responsible for one’s actions while drunk? Absolutely. The same kind of danger to society as the sort of person who would do such a thing clear-headed, without the influence of alcohol? Yeah… I don’t know about that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-hold-judges-personally-accountable-for-their-rulings/840127.md?page=7)