# Should we just be philosophical about capital punishment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391 "2008-07-14T03:02:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/21 "2008-07-14T10:17:25Z")
No, you’re reading that shit into it. But since you had to make an issue of it, well, if the people who commit murder and rape are poor and black, then I guess we’re going to have to execute people who are poor and black. Regarding race, if you look at [this list](http://web.archive.org/web/20031202213247/www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/executedoffenders.htm) of executed offenders in Texas, it’s pretty damn diverse. It represents the population pretty evenly. As to the poverty issue - I’m of the opinion that upper-class murderers should be killed just like lower-class ones. It’s not MY fault that the powers-that-be don’t see it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/22 "2008-07-14T10:58:04Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Why does it have to be costly? I keep reading this, that it costs fifty billion dollars to execute one prisoner, etc. How is this possible? How is it more expensive than paying for him to eat and live in prison for the rest of his life? [/QUOTE] The state has to pay for his legal defense (i.e., appeals) if he doesn’t have money for an attorney, correct? Maybe that’s the cost they’re referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/23 "2008-07-14T11:22:47Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Why does it have to be costly? I keep reading this, that it costs fifty billion dollars to execute one prisoner, etc. How is this possible? How is it more expensive than paying for him to eat and live in prison for the rest of his life? [/QUOTE] If you google “death penalty cost” you’ll get a lot of info on this issue. Here’s a few extracts: From a University of Vermont [research page](http://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/doc/deathpenalty.htm) (my underling): > [@](#): > > What many Americans do not realize is that the death penalty is more costly than incarcerating an inmate for life. A murder trial takes much longer when the death penalty is being pursued. The taxpayer is paying the salaries of the judges, prosecutors, public defenders, court officials, and the cost of briefs. “A 1982 study showed that if the death penalty were reintroduced in the state of New York, the cost of the capital trial alone would be more then double the cost of a life term in prison” (Bright, 1996). The Duke University study estimated that a death penalty trial takes about four times longer than a non-capital murder trial (Bright, 1996). And, of course, not every death penalty trial results in a death sentence. Based on the experience in North Carolina, the authors found that less than a third of capital trials resulted in a death sentence. > > Florida spent an estimated $57 million on the death penalty from 1973 to 1988 to achieve 18 executions - that is an average of $3.2 million per execution (Miami Herald). It costs six times more to execute a person in Florida than to incarcerate a prisoner for life with no parole. In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years (Dallas Morning News). The death penalty costs California $90 million annually beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system - $78 million of that total incurred at the trial level (Sacramento Bee). The New York Department of Correctional Services estimated that implementing the death penalty would cost the state about $118 million annually. To illustrate the cost, it is estimated that the money it would take to implement the death penalty in New York for just five years would be enough to fund 250 additional police officers and build prisons for 6,000 inmates (Lacayo, 1987). This kind of economic analysis was one of the factors leading to a recent push in New Jersey to [abolish the death penalty](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/13/AR2007121301302.html): > [@](#): > > In the end, the most compelling case for New Jersey lawmakers was the economic one. Keeping inmates on death row costs the state $72,602 per year for each prisoner, according to the commission. Inmates kept in the general population cost $40,121 per year each to house. The corrections department estimates that repeal could save the state as much as $1.3 million per inmate over his lifetime – and that figure does not include the millions spent by public defenders on inmates’ appeals. And here’s a [summary of a recent report about the costs of the death penalty in New Jersey](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7): > [@](#): > > **Death Penalty has Cost New Jersey Taxpayers $253 Million** > > A New Jersey Policy Perspectives report concluded that the state’s death penalty has cost taxpayers $253 million since 1983, a figure that is over and above the costs that would have been incurred had the state utilized a sentence of life without parole instead of death. The study examined the costs of death penalty cases to prosecutor offices, public defender offices, courts, and correctional facilities. The report’s authors said that the cost estimate is “very conservative” because other significant costs uniquely associated with the death penalty were not available. “From a strictly financial perspective, it is hard to reach a conclusion other than this: New Jersey taxpayers over the last 23 years have paid more than a quarter billion dollars on a capital punishment system that has executed no one,” the report concluded. Since 1982, there have been 197 capital trials in New Jersey and 60 death sentences, of which 50 were reversed. There have been no executions, and 10 men are housed on the state’s death row. Michael Murphy, former Morris County prosecutor, remarked: “If you were to ask me how $11 million a year could best protect the people of New Jersey, I would tell you by giving the law enforcement community more resources. I’m not interested in hypotheticals or abstractions, I want the tools for law enforcement to do their job, and $11 million can buy a lot of tools.” (again, my underlining). $253 million dollars spent on a death penalty system that produced 0 executions over two decades doesn’t sound particularly cost-effective… ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/24 "2008-07-14T11:32:12Z")
Well, it’s bullshit that they use the death penalty that way - it’s useless as it’s currently administered, both as a deterrent and as a form of “revenge.” I think, and have always thought, that the death penalty should be carried out on the day of the sentence, with either a bullet or hanging, whichever the condemned chooses. I think if we did it like this, there would be far, far fewer murders. But that’s just me. I know it’s very backwards and ignorant and unenlightened and whatever…but something just tells me it would be more effective than letting the fucker sit on “death” row for 30 years. The tiny number of innocent people that might accidentally be executed under this policy would be _nothing_ compared to the number of innocent _murder victims_ that would be saved because criminals would actually be AFRAID of the death penalty, instead of seeing Mumia Abu-Jamal’s example and viewing a death sentence as an opportunity to make a political martyr out of yourself and a mockery of the justice system. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/25 "2008-07-14T11:51:26Z")
[QUOTE=thirdwarning] I’m not going to get into the rights and wrongs of capital punishment, but this argument is just silly. The state does all kinds of things that are wrong or even criminal for individuals to do. [/QUOTE] All of the examples you cite are different in that governments do these in a way that hopefully benefits the broader public. Putting people to death (call it murder, call it capital punishment) does not have any broader public benefit and as cited by others is more costly than more humane alternatives. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/26 "2008-07-14T12:01:08Z")
Bernard Kerik himself, former Police Commissioner of New York City, who served time as a security guard in Saudi Arabia, wrote admiringly of the beheading-in-the-public-square method of execution that he saw being used there. He claimed that crimes such as murder and rape were extremely rare there. Is Saudi Arabia the country that America should be emulating? Probably not. Is a lower rate of murder and rape a good thing? I’d say so. Should all Americans be entitled to due process, and a fair trial? Yes. If executions were carried out immediately and publicly, would it scare the shit out of potential criminals? I think it would. I know this is a really, really unpopular viewpoint, but I really think it has some merit. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/27 "2008-07-14T12:09:09Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Well, it’s bullshit that they use the death penalty that way - it’s useless as it’s currently administered, both as a deterrent and as a form of “revenge.” I think, and have always thought, that the death penalty should be carried out on the day of the sentence, with either a bullet or hanging, whichever the condemned chooses. I think if we did it like this, there would be far, far fewer murders. [/quote] And if it turns out they were innocent, too bad eh ? After all, if they deserved to live they’d have had the money to hire a good lawyer. [QUOTE=Argent Towers] The tiny number of innocent people that might accidentally be executed under this policy would be _nothing_ compared to the number of innocent _murder victims_ that would be saved because criminals would actually be AFRAID of the death penalty, instead of seeing Mumia Abu-Jamal’s example and viewing a death sentence as an opportunity to make a political martyr out of yourself and a mockery of the justice system. [/QUOTE] Don’t be silly. Do you think that criminals expect to get caught ? Do you think they are dumb enough to believe that being executed has to do with anything other than your bank account and skin tone ? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/28 "2008-07-14T12:11:26Z")
My own 2 cents worth: Criminals( Murderers especially, I’d imagine, as they seem much less self-restrained than your average criminal!) are most probably only afraid of the Death Penalty once they are actually caught; by which time, it is far too late. Criminals, by their very nature, don’t think about getting caught too much; it is counter-productive to the job at hand if you spend more time contemplating getting caught than getting away with it. Just think about how many dumb-assed criminals take hostages… they’ve already been caught near enough, and they STILL think they can get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/29 "2008-07-14T12:13:14Z")
**Der Trihs** - what would YOU propose to do to punish criminals who have committed murder? People who shoot some poor guy in the back of the head, execution style, over 20 dollars? Worthless shitheads who unload a shotgun on their ex-wife? Sick perverts who rape, mutilate and murder little girls? In your ideal world, you don’t believe that we should be able to protect ourselves from crime (you’ve said that the Second Amendment is “useless,”) _and_ you don’t think that murderers should be executed. Maybe I’m crazy but it seems to me that you favor giving murderers way more rights than they deserve. Also, you can talk till the cows come home about your poor, dark-skinned criminals getting the death penalty. Bear in mind that most of their victims were also poor and dark-skinned. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/30 "2008-07-14T12:25:50Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] **Der Trihs** - what would YOU propose to do to punish criminals who have committed murder? People who shoot some poor guy in the back of the head, execution style, over 20 dollars? Worthless shitheads who unload a shotgun on their ex-wife? Sick perverts who rape, mutilate and murder little girls? [/QUOTE] Sorry to butt in guys, but my suggestion is that anyone who deliberately takes another persons life, forfeits their own rights immediately. But instead of going down the revenge line, and taking their life also, the remainder of their life should be put towards something useful. Use these people for final stage medical exams; test out bullet-proof sunglasses on them; put their miserable fucking lives to some positive use, at least. I know there is still the chance of an innocent being found guilty, but at least that injustice would still be reaping a positive benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/31 "2008-07-14T12:29:13Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] **Der Trihs** - what would YOU propose to do to punish criminals who have committed murder? [/quote] Toss them in prison and keep them there. Where, among other things, they can be released if they turn out to be innocent. [QUOTE=Argent Towers] In your ideal world, you don’t believe that we should be able to protect ourselves from crime (you’ve said that the Second Amendment is “useless,”) _and_ you don’t think that murderers should be executed. Maybe I’m crazy but it seems to me that you favor giving murderers way more rights than they deserve. [/quote] :rolleyes: Saying that I don’t think something will **work** isn’t at all the same as saying that I don’t think we should be allowed to protect ourselves. And again, this isn’t about murder, but race, class and gender. [QUOTE=Argent Towers] Also, you can talk till the cows come home about your poor, dark-skinned criminals getting the death penalty. Bear in mind that most of their victims were also poor and dark-skinned. [/QUOTE] Assuming that they actually were **their** victims; and not someone else’s victims. You have far more trust in our system than I do. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/32 "2008-07-14T12:30:33Z")
[QUOTE=ivan astikov] Sorry to butt in guys, but my suggestion is that anyone who deliberately takes another persons life, forfeits their own rights immediately. But instead of going down the revenge line, and taking their life also, the remainder of their life should be put towards something useful. Use these people for final stage medical exams; test out bullet-proof sunglasses on them; put their miserable fucking lives to some positive use, at least. I know there is still the chance of an innocent being found guilty, but at least that injustice would still be reaping a positive benefit. [/QUOTE] Barbaric. And if we do that, we just prove that we are if anything worse than the people we condemn. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/33 "2008-07-14T12:34:06Z")
Is there any data on the murder rates of capital-punishment states vs. non-C.P. ones or places where it is used very rarely? Does Texas have a higher crime rate than New York City? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/34 "2008-07-14T12:38:36Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Barbaric. And if we do that, we just prove that we are if anything worse than the people we condemn. [/QUOTE] How is it barbaric? Murderers are among the most societal damage causing individuals on the planet, and all we are currently doing is killing them or banging them behind bars for the rest of their lives. Why shouldn’t society be able to use these individuals to further our collective knowledge base? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/35 "2008-07-14T12:41:25Z")
According to any site I’ve looked at Texas has a higher violent crime rate than New York. I can’t vouch for their accuracy but here’s a cite: > **[Crime Rate by State, 2006](https://www.infoplease.com/us/crime/crime-rate-state-2006)** > > (rate per 100,000 inhabitants) The following table shows the U.S. crime rate by state during 2006 for offenses that include violent crime, property crime, rape, robbery, and murder. State Violentcrime (total) Murder1 Forcible rape Robbery... ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/36 "2008-07-14T12:43:48Z")
[QUOTE=Sunrazor] Should we outlaw capital punishment once and for all to avoid executing innocent people, or should we accept philosophically that some people are going to die unfairly in the name of social order? [/QUOTE] It isn’t either-or. Some people are going to die unfairly if we outlaw capital punishment. 1.2% of all murderers commit another murder within three years after their release from prison [(cite).](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/rpr94.htm) Other murderers kill while serving their sentences, or escape[(cite-PDF)](http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/opinions/tsc/PDF/983/hallwill.pdf). We have to accept philosophically that some people are going to die unfairly in the name of social order, with the DP or without it. The only question is how to reduce that number as much as possible. No person executed in the US since the reinstitution of the death penalty in the seventies has been shown to be factually innocent. Yes, I know all about the DNA thing - none of those people were executed. X number of people will be unfailrly killed by repeat/escaped/incarcerated murderers. Y number will be wrongfully executed. The question is if X is larger than Y, or Y larger than X. The most moral option is to choose the system with the smallest number. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/37 "2008-07-14T12:49:36Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Should all Americans be entitled to due process, and a fair trial? Yes. If executions were carried out immediately and publicly, would it scare the shit out of potential criminals? I think it would. [/QUOTE] You don’t see a contradiction there? Due process includes a right of appeal, to argue that the judge or jury made a mistake. But that interferes with the “shoot’em now” approach. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/38 "2008-07-14T12:51:15Z")
Do we accept that a person who carries out a crime that warrants a death penalty is somehow mentally different from people who don’t carry out such crimes? If so, do we want to learn anything about what made this person act so dangerously different to the average member of public, or do we just want to make sure THAT particular bad person, never does it again? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/39 "2008-07-14T12:53:22Z")
Yeah I know, there _is_ a contradiction. That’s what I’m getting at. The concept of “due process” is nowadays being interpreted as “you can wait 30 years on “death” row, and have your own radio show too.” It’s bullshit. I think it should be up to the judge whether or not the condemned man gets to have appeals or not, but I think he should have the option of saying, “do it now.” Like I said before - I know this is a really, really unpopular viewpoint. I know I’m going to be viewed as a barbarian by some people. I accept this, I accept it fully. I really think that if the death penalty were run the way I’m suggesting, it would work. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/40 "2008-07-14T12:57:00Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Is there any data on the murder rates of capital-punishment states vs. non-C.P. ones or places where it is used very rarely? Does Texas have a higher crime rate than New York City? [/QUOTE] There’s a lot of data, as summarised on this page: [Deterrence: States Without the Death Penalty Have Had Consistently Lower Murder Rates](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=168#stateswithvwithout) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391.md?page=3)