# Should we just be philosophical about capital punishment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391 "2008-07-14T03:02:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/41 "2008-07-14T12:59:27Z")
Well, shit. That certainly pokes a hole in my argument, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/42 "2008-07-14T13:00:20Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Yeah I know, there _is_ a contradiction. That’s what I’m getting at. [/QUOTE] So are you saying that due process should not include a right of appeal? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/43 "2008-07-14T13:01:29Z")
**Argent** , it wouldn’t work, because there is NO DETERRENT. Unless, or until we develop a society without rage, greed and plain old evil, we are ALWAYS going to have murderers. If taking a life is such a crime against humanity, who is worse - the person who kills because of a psychopathic rage they have never been able to control; or the person who does it rationally and calculatedly for a fee, or as a “public service”? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/44 "2008-07-14T13:07:13Z")
Uh…whichever one of them isn’t killing an innocent man, is the better of the two. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/45 "2008-07-14T13:11:33Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Uh…whichever one of them isn’t killing an innocent man, is the better of the two. [/QUOTE] Let’s say the murderer was a drug dealer, who had killed another drug dealer, who had also killed his brother, and he had been caught enacting his bloody revenge? He hasn’t killed an “innocent”, but it seems he’d get a pass in your book? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/46 "2008-07-14T13:18:03Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Well, shit. That certainly pokes a hole in my argument, I guess. [/QUOTE] My recollection is that for countries other than the US, such as Canada, abolition of the death penalty did not affect murder rates. I’ll see if i can dig it up. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/47 "2008-07-14T13:28:27Z")
From Northern Piper’s link, it would seem to suggest that potential murderers definitely pay no heed whatsoever to the prevailing sentence, otherwise they would be traveling to states without the death penalty to commit their heinous crimes, and thereby increasing their murder rates! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/48 "2008-07-14T13:43:05Z")
Here’s a summary from Amnesty International (Canada): [The Death Penalty in Canada: 20 Years of Abolition](http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php) > [@](#): > > **Twenty Years of Abolition: the Canadian Experience** > > Contrary to predictions by death penalty supporters, the homicide rate in Canada did not increase after abolition in 1976. In fact, the Canadian murder rate declined slightly the following year (from 2.8 per 100,000 to 2.7). Over the next 20 years the homicide rate fluctuated (between 2.2 and 2.8 per 100,000), but the general trend was clearly downwards. It reached a 30-year low in 1995 (1.98) – the fourth consecutive year-to-year decrease and a full one-third lower than in the year before abolition. In 1998, the homicide rate dipped below 1.9 per 100,000, the lowest rate since the 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/49 "2008-07-14T14:05:57Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Well, fuck it, I say if they’re not going to execute the prisoner, they shouldn’t just let him sit in a cell all day either. They should have hard-labor prison camps for the people who would have been on Death Row - and I mean hard labor, with no luxuries whatsoever, the minimum amount of food and water, and well-armed guards all around. Prisoners who worked hard and demonstrated exemplary behavior - like, Jesus Christ-level - might be able to have better food and a few luxuries like extra books or a radio or something. Everyone else would basically be a slave, and be worked like one. [/QUOTE] And what happens to the income of working class people in the surrounding areas of prisons if you have an available workforce at next to zero cost? So not only should the poor be the likely victims of crime, they should be suffer from your fantasy of a penal system? ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/50 "2008-07-14T17:18:31Z")
I’m checking back in – I didn’t just drop the bomb and then walk away. I have only one quibble: \*\*Argent Towers \*\* mentioned the swiftness with which Saudi capital punishment is administered, and equated it with a reportedly low murder rate there. My quibble concerns what is considered murder in Saudi Arabia. Are “murder” victims overwhelmingly male? Are “honor killings” tacitly approved, thus deducted from the murder statistics? I’m not saying they are, I’m just saying that a nation inhabited by a large number of people whose loyalties are more often tribal than national (not unlike street gangs in the U.S.) I would expect sudden death to be a fairly common way of settling disputes. Understand, I could have a completely wrong cultural view of Saudi Arabia, in which I’m confident my ignorance will be successfully fought. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/51 "2008-07-14T18:13:25Z")
There’s someone around here who would know about all that…I think he has the same name as one of the Beatles…no, not George…not John either…Ringo? Ringo in Saudi? I think that’s it. Anyway - **Der Trihs** - I seem to remember you saying that you supported American troops being killed in Iraq, and that you thought they deserved to die. Why do they deserve to die, but not someone who shoots his fellow countryman in the back of the head over twenty dollars or a bag of crack? Why is invading Iraq morally worse than raping a woman, mutilating her and then slitting her throat? You’d really have no problem with American Marines being blown to bits simply for being in Iraq, but the idea of Mumia Abu-Jamal getting the electric chair makes you go into hysterical fits? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/52 "2008-07-14T18:19:57Z")
Leaving aside Der’s nutty view on US troops (or America in general…he probably thinks we ALL deserve to die), it’s not a matter of deserve. A lot of people ‘deserve’ to die after all…and a lot of people that die ‘deserve’ to live (echo’s of LotR, to be sure). The point is that Capital Punishment as it is currently effected in the US is a costly, time consuming and inefficient process. It’s also wildly unpopular outside of the US (not something I’m overly concerned with myself, mind, but certainly a factor). It would be better to simply take CP off the books and instead close down the loopholes that allow for parole of some of the more heinous crime you mentioned. Personally, I think it’s MUCH worse to condemn someone to spend the rest of their lives behind bars than to kill them quickly and cleanly…and it’s also a lot cheaper, all things considered. And you know…in the case of some of these guys, I’m willing to give them the worst and put them behind bars for the rest of their lives. YMMV of course. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/53 "2008-07-14T18:54:22Z")
[QUOTE=Sunrazor] Understand, I could have a completely wrong cultural view of Saudi Arabia, in which I’m confident my ignorance will be successfully fought. [/QUOTE] I’m equally dubious of Saudi Arabia’s rape statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/54 "2008-07-14T19:18:33Z")
Condemn them to live their lives behind bars…like Richard Speck, who was videotaped doing lines of cocaine and was undergoing gender-reassignment hormone therapy to become a woman and grow tits…or Mumia Abu-Jamal, who was punished for shooting policeman Daniel Faulkner in the back by being allowed to do a radio show and give commencement speeches. Please. Puhh-leeeeeease. “Worse” my ass. They get decades to write manifestos, file nuisance lawsuits, and turn themselves into political martrys. Fuck that! They deserve to be hanged, on the day of the sentence. Of all the people on this forum you’re one of the ones I’d least expect to jump in and offer sympathy for these cold-blooded fucks. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/55 "2008-07-14T19:38:55Z")
_shrug_…as I said, YMMV. I don’t think the run of the mill prisoner would agree with your assessment about the joyful conditions you seem to think prevail. And, if you will forgive me, I think I have a better idea of what prison conditions actually are for most of those who would be getting (legally) whacked than you do, considering the number of my relatives who are or have spent time behind bars. If you and the majority of American’s wish to spend more money, time and legal effort to keep CP on the books then there isn’t a lot I can do about it, except to point out that it’s really stupid… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/56 "2008-07-14T19:50:12Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Bernard Kerik himself, former Police Commissioner of New York City, who served time as a security guard in Saudi Arabia, wrote admiringly of the beheading-in-the-public-square method of execution that he saw being used there. He claimed that crimes such as murder and rape were extremely rare there. Is Saudi Arabia the country that America should be emulating? Probably not. Is a lower rate of murder and rape a good thing? I’d say so. Should all Americans be entitled to due process, and a fair trial? Yes. If executions were carried out immediately and publicly, would it scare the shit out of potential criminals? I think it would. I know this is a really, really unpopular viewpoint, but I really think it has some merit. [/QUOTE] What part of this viewpoint do you think is unpopular? America shouldn’t be emulating Saudi Arabia? A lower rate of rape and murder is good? All Americans should get due process? Or that public executions would scare the shit out of all citizens? If the conclusion of all this is supposed to be, “America should practice immediate executions,” you picked a weird way to frame your argument. I think all your points are actually quite popular, but they don’t add up to the answer you think they do. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/57 "2008-07-14T20:17:04Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Bernard Kerik himself, former Police Commissioner of New York City, who served time as a security guard in Saudi Arabia, wrote admiringly of the beheading-in-the-public-square method of execution that he saw being used there. He claimed that crimes such as murder and rape were extremely rare there. Is Saudi Arabia the country that America should be emulating? Probably not. Is a lower rate of murder and rape a good thing? I’d say so. Should all Americans be entitled to due process, and a fair trial? Yes. If executions were carried out immediately and publicly, would it scare the shit out of potential criminals? I think it would. I know this is a really, really unpopular viewpoint, but I really think it has some merit. [/QUOTE] Are you saying that we should aspire to be Saudi Arabia, a theocracy? Do you think maybe the reason that there reported figures for Rape are so low is that they tend to punish the [victim?](http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/11/16/saudia17363.htm) Personally, I’d like to think that we can aspire to a little better than that. Most of the people who are on death row had poor [representation](http://www.aclu.org/capital/unequal/10390pub20031008.html). To take the example of Virginia, this article from 2001 states that the cap on felony cases was a whopping [$1,196.00](http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/DefenseUpdates/039News01?OpenDocument), which I believe has since been increased although I’m not sure by how much. Virginia is an extreme example, but you can see why they aren’t getting the most effective counsel. I’m not completely against the death penalty in theory, but I can certainly see strong arguments as to why we should abolish. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/58 "2008-07-14T21:06:22Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Leaving aside Der’s nutty view on US troops [/QUOTE] Go ask the people whose nations we’ve wrecked if my views of American troops are “nutty”. You’re just taking the standard American position that it’s OK to kill non-Americans, but American lives are sacred. It’s OK for us to kill other soldiers, but it’s terrible if ours get killed, right ? Because after all, only Americans are actually human. [QUOTE=Argent Towers] Anyway - **Der Trihs** - I seem to remember you saying that you supported American troops being killed in Iraq, and that you thought they deserved to die. Why do they deserve to die, but not someone who shoots his fellow countryman in the back of the head over twenty dollars or a bag of crack? [/quote] Because one is a soldier in an invading army and the other isn’t ? Because there’s more evidence for the soldier being actually guilty ? Because the soldier is more dangerous, and ISN’T in a prison ? [QUOTE=Argent Towers] Why is invading Iraq morally worse than raping a woman, mutilating her and then slitting her throat? [/quote] Because that sort of thing and more, and worse is **part** of our invasion. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/59 "2008-07-14T21:51:55Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Go ask the people whose nations we’ve wrecked if my views of American troops are “nutty”. You’re just taking the standard American position that it’s OK to kill non-Americans, but American lives are sacred. It’s OK for us to kill other soldiers, but it’s terrible if ours get killed, right ? [/QUOTE] Um, no actually…that’s YOUR strawman. I never said it’s ok for us to kill anyone we like. I just said your view that US personnel deserve to die is nutty…just as your view that the US is the font of all evil is nutty. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Because after all, only Americans are actually human. [/QUOTE] Again, that’s YOUR strawman, ehe? It bears not reflection of my own views on the subject. You might want to take a quick step back though and see the irony of this strawman, especially with regards to your own feelings about American’s… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391/60 "2008-07-14T22:08:40Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] The tiny number of innocent people that might accidentally be executed under this policy would be _nothing_ compared to the number of innocent _murder victims_ that would be saved… [/QUOTE] There is nothing more heinous or grotesque that the state can do in my name than killing an innocent man. There is no number tiny enough to justify it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-be-philosophical-about-capital-punishment/456391.md?page=4)