# Should we just de-brand Christmas as Yule? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281 "2015-12-24T18:40:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/41 "2015-12-26T06:42:38Z")
…Merry Boobs&TubesDay? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/42 "2015-12-26T07:31:33Z")
> [@Keln](#): > > I find it amusing that there are people who reject Christmas (as well as other Christian themes) in western culture and seek to replace it with things like Yule, which itself was a religious event that is: > > 1. Even older than Christmas, so arguably less relevant to modern culture. > 2. Generally applicable to Germanic peoples and not all Europeans. > 3. A pagan “holiday” with some rather bizarre rites compared to traditional Christmas (such as animal sacrifices like slaughtering the sacred boar and hunts). > > And, if we must be technical about it, the chosen date of Christmas was never intended to replace Yule…that happened organically as Germans converted over centuries. December 25th (or thereabouts) was chosen by the Romans to replace their original festival of Saturnalia. 1. Probably not. Yule dates no earlier than the 4th century, and we know nothing about how it was celebrated until the Saga of Hákon the Good. In Fact Hakon the Good moved Yule so that it fell on Dec 25th. Nope. Saturnalia was Dec 17th or so, and had stopped being celebrated for \*centuries \*before Christmas was a big holiday. There’d be no reason to pick a dead holiday that no one remember or celebrated. The early Christians (as early as 200 AD) had already fixed March 25th as the Annunciation. Simple math makes Dec 25th the birthday. Now, true, they picked the date of the Annunciation for more or less mystical reasons. Note that Christmas wasnt a big holiday until about the time of Charlemagne . Before that Easter was the big holiday (and it stayed that was for many centuries afterwards) along with the Epiphany (Jan 6). Christmas was only a minor feast day before that. Mind you, yes, of course Christmas took on many aspects from other religions- the Yule Log, Holly, Mistletoe, perhaps even Gift giving. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/43 "2015-12-26T07:34:24Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Every Christmas people talk about Saturnalia or some other winter-solstice festival. Christmas can’t have been made to be Dec 25 to replace 5 or 6 unrelated (religiously speaking) festivals. > Hence, every year, I [re-post this article about the date of Christmas](http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v#) being unrelated to mid-winter festivals. Of course, some celebrations have become part of Chistmas, but even those that look obvious, like trees, have more than one possible explantaion. > . Right. The date of Christmas has nothing to do with Saturnalia. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/44 "2015-12-27T03:49:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Amen, pun intended. We had a great Christmas. Kids opening presents, a huge dinner for 12, tree, ugly sweaters, the works and no mention of religion, not one word. And we all call it Christmas. But why would I, an atheist Jew, want to take on a bunch of what I perceive of as Christian traditions, that mean nothing to me. Now if you wanted to eat Chinese food and take in a movie, we could talk. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/45 "2015-12-27T06:04:21Z")
Because they’re fun? Turkey’s kosher. Do what you will, but if you don’t want turkey, presents and a tree, why would calling it Yule change that? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/46 "2015-12-27T07:31:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Because they’re fun? Turkey’s kosher. > > Do what you will, but if you don’t want turkey, presents and a tree, why would calling it Yule change that? Eating Turkey is a Crime Against Christmas (Or Crime against Yule). ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/47 "2015-12-27T13:47:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Do what you will, but if you don’t want turkey, presents and a tree, why would calling it Yule change that? It’s not that I don’t like those things, but that it’s still Christmas, and I don’t celebrate Christmas. Q: If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? A: 4, because no matter what you call it, a tail is not a leg. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/48 "2015-12-27T15:21:18Z")
I find drawing Jesus Christ into the cultural holiday of Christmas a bit offensive, though I kind of have to yield to precedent on this one. And as a devout atheist and antitheist, I approve in principle with the idea of rebranding the solstice celebration to reduce that ugliness. But I also approve in principle with taking the sacredness and religion out of marriage as a social and legal institution, and there was an idea afloat for a while that “marriage” should be rebranded as “civil unions”. It slowly dawned on me that the problem with this is how intertwined the religions and civil brands already were. All kinds of laws were written using “marriage” as a legal term, and civil unions were as Ginsburg put it a “skim milk” kind of marriage. In other words, the old brand becomes the “real” thing, and the new brand becomes a cheap fake trick version. If there were a way to change the real brand, I’d be all for it, but I don’t know how we could do that. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/49 "2015-12-27T16:53:21Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > I find drawing Jesus Christ into the cultural holiday of Christmas a bit offensive, though I kind of have to yield to precedent on this one. And as a devout atheist and antitheist, I approve in principle with the idea of rebranding the solstice celebration to reduce that ugliness. Christmas is not a solstice celebration, and never was. Nobody draws Jesus Christ in Christmas. “Modern” Christmas has taken Him out of it, Solstice celebrations are religious/spiritual. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/50 "2015-12-27T17:04:42Z")
I could get behind this idea. Actually, I’d rather get out in front, and then turn around… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/51 "2015-12-27T17:17:18Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > I find drawing Jesus Christ into the cultural holiday of Christmas a bit offensive… Well, who wouldn’t? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/52 "2015-12-28T00:28:32Z")
Bryan Ekers: > [@](#): > > I’m not sure I’d credit Christmas with what you’re describing Magiver: > [@](#): > > Because in the past money was used to light fires or even out table legs? You jumped the shark on that one. Won’t anybody think of the CHILDREN? That’s where Hanukkah gifts of anything other than money came about - American Jewish children being jealous of seeing their non-Jewish peers with brand new toys. Jewish parents didn’t want their kids to feel like the gentiles had it better than they did, so they started making Hanukkah a gift-giving holiday as well. Sure, money could have been used to buy toys, but kids getting money while seeing other kids with toys are like Homer Simpson finding a $20 under the couch instead of the peanut he was looking for - still disappointed, even though a little while later they might remember that “Money can be exchanged for goods and services!” ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/53 "2015-12-28T02:26:08Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > I say we re-brand Merry Christmas as Merry Boobsday—a day when all women the world over flash their boobs to one and all. Who wouldn’t find that a merry holiday? > > …well, I guess the merriment wouldn’t include gay men…ok, back to the drawing board. ?? Huh ?? ---
**Author:** ![urban1a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47c2d/32.png) [@urban1a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban1a)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/54 "2015-12-28T02:30:06Z")
In the Dr. Who Christmas special which just aired, the year is 5343 and it is Christmas time and there are decorations and people singing carols (I think) which I find depressing somehow. Don’t they ever give up? Bob ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/55 "2015-12-28T03:22:54Z")
It’s fiction; not a documentary about the future. Don’t be depressed. It is, after all, the most wonderful time of the year!! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/56 "2015-12-28T04:27:02Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > I say we re-brand Merry Christmas as Merry Boobsday—a day when all women the world over flash their boobs to one and all. Who wouldn’t find that a merry holiday? > > …well, I guess the merriment wouldn’t include gay men…ok, back to the drawing board. Gay men could flash their boobs to each other? ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/57 "2015-12-28T06:39:00Z")
I’m OK with Holloween remaining a pagan celebration. But then, your masters are bent on weakening Christianity, not Samhain. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/58 "2015-12-28T07:05:55Z")
> [@j666](#): > > ?? Huh ?? I think he is fishing for some sort of metaphor that will get his package unwrapped. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/59 "2015-12-28T14:37:03Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > … every year, I [re-post this article about the date of Christmas](http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v#) being unrelated to mid-winter festivals. Well, you fought a little ignorance this year. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281/60 "2015-12-28T18:04:34Z")
This is what Festivus is for. Yule is just as religious as Christmas, although it aligns with our current Christmas traditions more than a Festivus pole and the Feats of Strength. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-de-brand-christmas-as-yule/741281.md?page=4)