# Should we just take AFGHANISTAN? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2001, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319 "2001-10-09T13:54:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/1 "2001-10-09T13:54:34Z")
If we wanted to, the US, we could feasibly take control of Afghanistan and make it a sort of MidEast USA. What then are the advantages, the disadvatages, problems possibly arising, et al…? What say you, dopers? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/2 "2001-10-09T14:02:44Z")
Er, no, because it would be stealing, which is wrong? Because it belongs to someone else, i.e. the people who already live there? Because we’d never be able to police it, or control it, from halfway around the world? Because any such move on our part would immediately deeply offend and frighten the entire rest of the world, including all the countries we are currently privileged to call “friends”, like the UK? Not to mention the reaction from all the Arab nations, many of whom have nukes? Any “pro” arguments out there? ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/3 "2001-10-09T14:14:46Z")
sure, we take it and thusly have a state in an invaluable position, close to china, close to iran and iraq… If this war is a long war we(the citizens of the US) are going to have to pay taxes. So rather than pay taxes we just take the country and use its natural resources to pay off our debt. (What natural resources does it have? I don;t know, but I’m sure we could find some in the mountains.) After we effectively destroy the Taliban, or any and all of the opposition, few anti-US citizens of Afghanistan will be left leaving pro-US Afghan citizens wondering what they’ll do now that most of their country has been annihilated. What can they do? become US citizens, with their own new state called MidEast USA. We’ll supply them with Levis and Big Macs, put up some Wal-Marts, bada bing! a new state. Now, am I serious? Is this a good idea? Let’s talk about it. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/4 "2001-10-09T14:16:05Z")
Since when do “many” Arab nations have nukes? Anyways, Mark Steyn (columnist at the National Post) says the Western world should colonize Afghanistan in order to bring it kicking and screaming into the Modern Age. The alternative is what he calls the sonofabitch system. ie. "He may be one, but he’s ours. " Force the area to have British Courts, Canadian cops, American notions about liberty (including being allowed to bitch at your _own_ government without being shot). Think about it. The region in question only got _worse_ when Britain moved out. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/5 "2001-10-09T14:16:42Z")
Nope, trying to make Afghans into good little americans is a trerrible idea. They have their own culture and religion, and it would be terribly presumptuous, not to mean strategically stupid, of us to disregard that. What we should do is help set up an Afghan, Muslim state whre the rights of all citizens are protected. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/6 "2001-10-09T14:22:12Z")
I think the Big Picture has already been sorted. Afghanistan is going into the Russian ‘sphere of influence’ in order to deny a staging post for rebellious Muslims. Russia needs those oil and gas fields far in the Southern Republics to be secure far, far too badly for any other outcome. The deal with the West has already been done All hail our new cheap oil, non-OPEC friend !! ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/7 "2001-10-09T14:32:43Z")
Nope. With the help of Afghanis we can remove the Taliban. But I wouldn’t try to hold that piece of real estate. Bad precidents for success there. We certainly will need to do some economic rebuilding there so we can have some type of stable government there. But the best we can hope for is a moderate government of some kind, it is unlikely to conform to our Western ideals. ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/8 "2001-10-09T14:38:19Z")
we could completely change the country in one or two generations. ---
**Author:** ![sirjamesp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@sirjamesp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sirjamesp)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/9 "2001-10-09T14:38:21Z")
Are we talking about the pros and cons of taking Afghanistan, or the pros and cons of keeping it? I am sure that the pros and cons for the idea of taking it are easy enough: PRO - Order and the rule of law is restored to a stone-age part of the world. CON - It’s a bit arrogant to assume that ordinary Afghans _want_ our idea of civilisation. But even we decide to take it, then what? As for the idea of keeping it, forget it. Suppose a Western set of laws are imposed. Why do you think the trouble-makers will take a blind bit of notice? To control the country, troops will have to be stationed there, barracked up. Guerillas will try to force them out, so I hope you are happy for plenty of dead soldiers. And even if you are happy with this idea, these besieged troops won’t impose any control on the vast, desolate country, where the various tribes will carry on exactly as they always have done. Eventually, the besieged soldiers will have to leave again, once it becomes clear that the bombings and shootings organised by the guerillas are taking their toll, without any sort of real order being imposed on them. At this point, the occupying force will have learnt the lesson that Alexander the Great, the British and the Russians have learnt the hard way before: you can’t control an enemy you can’t see. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/10 "2001-10-09T14:49:26Z")
Sir James: I believe the OP is talking about annexing it, controlling it, making it a sort of “MidEast USA”, which actually is a laughable comparison, because it presupposes that the U.S. controls the Mideast, which it manifestly doesn’t. If we’re controlling the Mideast, huccome they won’t _do_ what we _tell_ them? 😉 * * * Okay, maybe not “many” Arab nations have nukes, but certainly “enough to make us very uncomfortable and ruin everybody’s Christmas plans”. Pakistan has full-fledged “member of the club” nuke capabilities. [http://www.milnet.com/milnet/state/pakistan/paknuke.htm](http://www.milnet.com/milnet/state/pakistan/paknuke.htm) We just spent a solid month tiptoeing around Pakistan’s delicate sensibilities, as they were understandably reluctant to have us base an attack against fellow Muslims on their territory. They granted us flyover rights, but that’s about it. So, what, they’re just going to sit there and eat popcorn while we roll up the big guns and conquer their Islamic neighbor? According to this FAQ, dating from 1999, in the list of “Nuclear Weapon Nations and Arsenals” their list of “suspected states” includes Iran and Libya, neither of whom like us very much, and under “States Formerly Possessing or Pursuing Nuclear Weapons” they list Algeria, who doesn’t like us very much either, and Iraq, which scares me more than any of the others. [http://www.milnet.com/milnet/nukeweap/Nfaq7.html](http://www.milnet.com/milnet/nukeweap/Nfaq7.html) Lemme see, now, Saddam Hussein suddenly hears that Uncle Sam has decided to invade and conquer Afghanistan. Is he just gonna lean back in his BarcaLounger, say, “Good on ya, Yanks!” and pop another Bud? As for the other Arab nations, want to take an educated guess as to how many of them have a few of the following tucked away in a warehouse somewhere? [http://www.milnet.com/milnet/nukedesc.htm](http://www.milnet.com/milnet/nukedesc.htm) > [@](#): > > Nuclear weapons can be distinguished from their delivery vehicles, but it senseless to try to analyze the warhead itself without first understanding the delivery system. Today, nuclear weapons delivery systems are comprised of 6 classes: > > Free Fall Bombs (parachute assisted for air bursts) > Attack Missiles Class 1 (Carried aloft by aircraft and includes both short range and stand-off air-to-surface weapons such as cruise missiles) > Cruise Missiles Class 2 (Carried by Submarines or Naval Surface vessels) > Cruise Missiles Class 3 (Launched from the Battlefield) > Battlefield Ballistic Missiles (Launched from the Battlefield) > Ballistic Missiles (includes all ICBM, SRBM, MRBB, etc.) > > The weapon itself is classified as: > Tactical - Yield of less than 100KT (15KT minimum) > Strategic - Yield greater than 100KT > Weapons of Terror - Any Nuclear Yield will do Am I the only one who gets the willies at that cheerful “oh, any nuclear yield will do”? ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/11 "2001-10-09T14:59:42Z")
**sirjamesp** , I’m not suggestingw e attempt to control the Afghans by force after we destroy the Taliban. After we eliminate the Taliban, we then acclimate the remaining Afghans over a few generations; not with bombs, but with education and… dare we say it… capitalism? ---
**Author:** ![EternalStudent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecc23a/32.png) [@EternalStudent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EternalStudent)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/12 "2001-10-09T15:00:51Z")
I always thought that Puerto Rico would be the top candidate for a 51st state. I never would have thought that Afghanistan might approach the list. Given that the area is a bit smaller than Texas, I think Afghanistan would make a charming addition to our great nation. Seeing as how the country is essentially a wasted pisshole of poverty, destruction and despair, it’s largest cash crop being opium (supplying around 85% of the world’s heroin, not to mention some killer hash), it could definitely benefit from annexation. We should go in there, turn it around, get some good irrigation going, introduce the Afghans to hip-hop, video games, and Britney Spears. As for Islam, we should wipe it out there. It’s a waste of time. Most of the people there would trade their Koran in for a loaf of bread. You wanna know why Islam is so popular there? BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING BETTER TO DO. When you ain’t got shit to do, might as well dedicate all your free hours toward something that seems important. Once they realize all the fun stuff there is out there, Islam will be a mere afterthought. Right now Afghanistan is just being wasted among idiots. Lets take what should be ours. * * * I am [not a terorrist](http://www.notaterrorist.com) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/13 "2001-10-09T15:11:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EternalStudent \* > \*\*As for Islam, we should wipe it out there. It’s a waste of time. Most of the people there would trade their Koran in for a loaf of bread. You wanna know why Islam is so popular there? BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING BETTER TO DO. When you ain’t got shit to do, might as well dedicate all your free hours toward something that seems important. Once they realize all the fun stuff there is out there, Islam will be a mere afterthought. > > \*\* Uh…you’re kidding, right? ---
**Author:** ![sirjamesp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@sirjamesp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sirjamesp)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/14 "2001-10-09T15:21:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Lolo** _ > I’m not suggestingw e attempt to control the Afghans by force after we destroy the Taliban. After we eliminate the Taliban, we then acclimate the remaining Afghans over a few generations Ah, that’s all right then. 'Coz whilst the teachers/troops/police/local government/Ronald McDonald/whatever are waving and smiling at the Afghans who are sick and fed up of war, and have been waiting for civilisation for hundreds of years, the guerillas hiding in the deserts will sit back quite happily and let you get on with it. Or do you think that these guerillas (who are fighting against the US presence in Saudi Arabia) might be even more peeved that you are now in _their_ country? Like it or not, winning the hearts and minds of the majority will not be done without the use of force on the minority. And whilst this minority are intent on killing Americans, these Americans will not be able to stroll casually around Kabul showing the Afghans how great it is to be part of the USA. I’m with the **Goose** on this one. Annex: easy. Control aforementioned annex: not a hope in hell. And as **Duck Duck Goose** ’s points out, the fact that “MidEast USA” would be surrounded by angry nations - not to mention OBL’s gang - waving nuclear bombs, is a pretty big obstacle in the way of forming McAfghanistan. Not much to debate really. ---
**Author:** ![sirjamesp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@sirjamesp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sirjamesp)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/15 "2001-10-09T15:24:48Z")
Ignore my wanton use of the italic. A momentary attack of stupidity made me press “submit” instead of “preview”. ---
**Author:** ![EternalStudent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecc23a/32.png) [@EternalStudent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EternalStudent)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/16 "2001-10-09T15:27:42Z")
Absolutely not. I’m dead serious. What the hell good is Allah if all he does is make people suffer? Islam is just destroying these people’s lives. Instead of trying to make a change, they just pray out to Allah, who does jack. So they suffer. Eliminating Islam might be a drastic move, but it will eventually benefit our new Afghan-American citizens. I’m not saying Christianity is any better. I am not anti-Islam by any means. I believe that all organized religion is esentially useless, solely exisiting for people who don’t have better things to do. But at least here in Judeo-Christian America, we have food. Islam is a scourge to the Afghans and must be eliminated before any real progress is made. * * * I am [not a terrorist](http://www.notaterrorist.com) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/17 "2001-10-09T15:36:43Z")
It’s NOT ISLAM. It’s EXTREME FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS. People like Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/18 "2001-10-09T15:40:23Z")
Guin: conserve your energies for more worthy targets, babe. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![EternalStudent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecc23a/32.png) [@EternalStudent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EternalStudent)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/19 "2001-10-09T15:44:20Z")
Yes yes I know it’s not Islam. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with Islam. I am well aware of the distinction between Muslims and extreme fundamentalists. BUT You have to realize that if we were to take over Afghanistan and make it the 51st state, we would probably have to eliminate Islam just to establish our control. Unfortunately, in run-down countries like Afghanistan, people become very religious because IT’S ALL THEY HAVE. Then the count on faith to help them, which (surprise surprise) it doesn’t, so their life becomes shittier, and they become even MORE religious. I’m sure you can see the viscious cycle. In order to get the Afghans to conform to the American way of life, Islam would have to be eliminated there. It won’t be that hard. Give the average Afghan a couple Big Mac’s and he’d be like Allah who? * * * I am [not a terrorist](http://www.notaterrorist.com) ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/20 "2001-10-09T15:51:25Z")
[QUOTE] _Originally posted by sirjamesp_ Or do you think that these guerillas (who are fighting against the US presence in Saudi Arabia) might be even more peeved that you are now in _their_ country? [quote] sure they’ll be peeved, but the idea is to UNpeeve them by appeasing them and appealing to their desires (albeit a major desire would be to rid their country of US). > [@](#): > > Like it or not, winning the hearts and minds of the majority will not be done without the use of force on the minority. And whilst this minority are intent on killing Americans, these Americans will not be able to stroll casually around Kabul showing the Afghans how great it is to be part of the USA. Well, nothing is easy but if we put our minds to it… it CAN be ours. It’s just a matter of big macs, big screen TVs, and video games. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319.md?page=2)