# Should we just take AFGHANISTAN? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2001, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319 "2001-10-09T13:54:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/61 "2001-10-10T22:34:58Z")
I’m STILL waiting for a Mod to drop in… Polycarp MORONIC? HELLO? Poly is probably one of the most intelligent, articulate, eloquent and gracious posters on this board. He is also one HELL of a guy and one of the best posters around. Sheesh! ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/62 "2001-10-10T22:45:25Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Lolo:_ > \*\*Is the Islamic faith responsible for denying women equal rights? \*\* Possibly. But isn’t Christianity also responsible for denying women equal rights? Possibly. > [@](#): > > 1 Corinthians 14 > 33 > For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. > 34 > Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. > 35 > And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. Isn’t Judaism also responsible for denying women equal rights? Possibly. > [@](#): > > Deuteronomy 24 > 1 > When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. But is the fact that an organized religion may be responsible for denying women equal rights a reason to set out to eradicate that religion from its believers’ hearts and minds? No. Because it wouldn’t be fair to do that to the rest of the world and not do it to ourselves, and because in America, at least, people have a right to believe in whatever religion they want, remember? Even if you personally don’t have any use for religion, many of us do, and we have the constitutional right to believe. [http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmenti](http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmenti) > [@](#): > > Amendment I > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. If we’re going to go around eradicating religions that oppress women, why not start at home first? > [@](#): > > Luke 6 > 41 > And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? > 42 > Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/63 "2001-10-10T23:47:07Z")
ES’s rant is so egregiously false I feel moved to shed it as follows: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EternalStudent \* > [My point] is that all those who cried out that destroying Islam would be wrong, unAmerican, etc etc obviously haven’t a clue of how America is what it is. No, rather they have 100% knowledge of the mere fact, fact mind you–not opinon, of the Constitution of the United States of America which mandates that the government neither respect nor prohibit any particular religion. This has obviously escaped you: Islam is what’s known as a religion. That means it’s off limits to eradication. > [@](#): > > We take what we want, Incorrect. The United States got out of the colony business some time ago. That you are stuck in the past does not, in any way whatsoever, mean the rest of us are. Let’s see: [ul][li]Philippines[/li][li]Marshall Islands[/li][li]Marianas[/li][li]Canal Zone[/ul][/li] Looks to me like we gave back. > [@](#): > > with regard to none but ourselves. Incorrect yet again. The Philippine populace wanted independence for quite some time. Minor little thing known as World War II got in the way of a smooth transition to that. There are, of course, Guam and Puerto Rico which both have pro-independence movements. What’s rarely reported, apparently because it’s not as eye-catching on the television news, is that both territories have pro-“status quo” and pro-statehood movements which actually want the territories to remain part of the United States. > [@](#): > > That, my cross-worshpping companion, is the real American way. Why should anyone take your word on this when you’ve been proven wrong? Anyway, what about those Americans who do not worship the cross and those who do not worship any deity? > [@](#): > > Those who deny this are living in a fantasy world. No, 'tis they who are living in reality. You, ES, are living in a world of delusion. See a doctor and get help–the sooner, the better. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/64 "2001-10-11T01:35:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by epolo \* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Monty_ > > Yeah, that worked so well in the Philippines > > Umm…didn’t it work pretty well in Germany and Japan? > Or are you saying that the Philippines is a better analogy to the present situation and if so why? Germany and Japan were each pretty much homogenous nations when they lost WWII. The Philippines, although it has an overwhelming Roman Catholic majority, is by no means homogenous. There are Tagalog, Ilocano, Visayan, Cubuano, etc. groups, many of them with their own languages (and with dialects for those languages). There is also a Muslim minority which is mostly situated in Mindanao. Essentially, the Philippines went from being colonized by Spain to being colonized by the United States to being run like shit by their absolutely corrupt government. Germany and Japan each had effective (if not representative) governments before their defeat. All the while Spain and then the United States tried to “reshape” the Philippines, there were independence fighters against the colonial governments. After the defeat of Germany and Japan, those countries participated in rebuilding the governments and the nations without fighting yet another war. Like the Philippines, Afghanistan is comprised of numerous ethnic groups and, unless the Taliban just recently killled the last of them off, a couple of minority religions. Does this answer your query? ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/65 "2001-10-11T05:59:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **Eternal Student** , though there is much wrong with our past and a fair to middling amount wrong with our present, please name anywhere else (other than the few nations with whom we share similar origins with similar abuse of aboriginal now-minorities) where you could publish on a public medium such a comment and not lie in fear of the Special Police coming to take you away for sedition? To be fair, I think you could say such things all over Europe and in several parts of the world more easily than in the US, which suffers, for example, from persistent outbursts of witch-hunting. So I would not use this country as the perfect example of freedom, government propaganda notwithstanding. Said that, the US certainly has its strong points, chief in my mind being the Constitution and attitudes like the following: > [@](#): > > Many of us are not blind to America’s faults. That does not stop us from loving it and wanting to improve it. It is such a brief sentence that makes the US a great country; not its military might, ruthlessly capitalist system, frequently obtuse leadership, rearing fundamentalism, inferior education system, intrusive administration, or offensive policies. You can pick any nation, even ones as “successful” as Canada or Sweden (examples), and find some problems with them. In delicate times like these, however, when the world starts speaking of “clash of civilizations”, it is time for everyone to slow down and think carefully about what is broadcast. The idea of just taking Afghanistan is of course plain silly; the suggestion of eradicating Islam is idiocy; the assertion that “Moslem” = “Arabic” is ignorance; and the vaunted superiority of American values over others, even those present in Afghanistan, is partly delusional. There are PLENTY of worthy values, practices, and governments outside the borders of the US. Please stop assuming that US culture and values could solve the problems in Afghanistan. That’s a brand of ethnocentrism, and is rather irrelevant since it presents us with a bigger problem than we face now (i.e. Americanizing Afghanistan). The problems in Afghanistan will be solved by a lot of hard work from many members of the international community, the US included. This will be a task of reconstruction and re-education rather than destruction. The only ways you can deal with fanatics permanently is to a) kill them, or b) attack their fanaticism through education. Solution (a) results in martyrs, which further incite surviving fanatics and puts absolutely everyone at risk. Solution (b) seems, at least superficially, more daunting, but a fanatic who has been educated presents us with the following advantages: 1. He is no longer a fanatic, or at least is toned down 2. Is not martyr material because he is alive 3. He may help educate other fanatics or speak out against them 4. His lack of a brutal death will not inspire feelings of revenge in his family, friends, sect, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/66 "2001-10-11T14:09:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > > > [@](#): > > > > _originally posted by Lolo:_ > > Is the Islamic faith responsible for denying women equal rights? > > \*\* > Possibly. But isn’t Christianity also responsible for denying women equal rights? Possibly. > > Isn’t Judaism also responsible for denying women equal rights? Possibly. > > But is the fact that an organized religion may be responsible for denying women equal rights a reason to set out to eradicate that religion from its believers’ hearts and minds? \*\* Possibly. 😉 You’ve listed some reasons why I subscribe to no religious doctrine. You’ve also made a comment on a comment I was trying to make. The Judaeo-Christian religions have made a concerted effort to ignore many passages in their favorite books while screaming from the rooftops about others; but that is their problem, not mine, and maybe they don’t even see it as a problem. Basically what we’ve encountered is a church and state argument. For the Taliban, and for many Middle Eastern countries, the church IS their state. So, what to do? Education certainly is necessary. ( which would be easier if we just took that shit ;)) Erradication would only fuel the rebellious fire. Here’s a question; Is a religion inherently flawed for suggesting sexual inequality? Or… were the prophets who wrote the books not really listening to God? I mean, I’d hate to think an all powerful being would be sexist, wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/67 "2001-10-11T14:38:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > \*\* > Here’s a question; Is a religion inherently flawed for suggesting sexual inequality? > > Or… were the prophets who wrote the books not really listening to God? I mean, I’d hate to think an all powerful being would be sexist, wouldn’t you? \*\* Or maybe the books are reflections of their times, when women were considered to be inferior. ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/68 "2001-10-11T14:55:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > > \*\* > > Here’s a question; Is a religion inherently flawed for suggesting sexual inequality? > > > > Or… were the prophets who wrote the books not really listening to God? I mean, I’d hate to think an all powerful being would be sexist, wouldn’t you? \*\* > > Or maybe the books are reflections of their times, when women were considered to be inferior. \*\* Is God not timeless? I’m not sure about your response. Are you pro or anti God? what’s your story? If God cannot correctly inspire, what kind of God is he/she/it? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/69 "2001-10-11T15:17:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Is God not timeless? Depens on one’s definition of god. After all, there are still extant relgions which postulate gods who are born, fight each other, and then die. You evidently are not able to distinguish between the particular form of relgion you protest against and all other forms of religion. ---
**Author:** ![EternalStudent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecc23a/32.png) [@EternalStudent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EternalStudent)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/70 "2001-10-11T17:17:00Z")
First of all, sorry for calling Polycarp moronic. That was not nice. It’s just that those damn christians always get my panties in a bunch. Now to the real point… What I see are a bunch of idealists like Monty who just looove to be patriotic and talk about how much they loove America and how great the Constitution is for providing all of our precious freedoms and how great America is because we care about all the people in the world etc etc Spare me. The only reason that we are what we are, the only reason that we have what we have, the only reason that you people can even claim that you love America, is because we ROBBED thousands of Native American’s of their freedom. Period. This is our foundation, one built on taking freedom from others. This is what our country was molded from. So it is **utterly hypocritical** for anyone to condemn behavoir similar to this (ie taking over Afghanistan and eradicating Islam there). This is what we do. We are the most powerful nation in the world. We take over. We kick shit. We have appointed ourselves global police. We live in relative safety from the rest of the world. IT IS THIS AND THIS ALONE which allows us our little freedoms. Our freedoms would be yanked IN A HEARTBEAT if national security was on the line. (ww2 japanese holding camps for example) After the WTC bombing, there was already a significant threat to our freedoms. Throw in a couple more terrorist attacks and you can kiss them all goodbye. Our freedoms are just an illusion to placate us, but once shit starts to get real hairy, they will vanish. The Constitution, which some of you love to cite, is nothing more than a byproduct of robbing others (Native Americans) of their freedoms. Therefore whatever freedoms it might proclaim are effectively nullified. Except the right to bear arms. We seem to really like that one. You can take a big pile of shit and make a real nice, intricate sculpture, full of meaning and importance. But guess what, no matter how you mold it, you can never cover the fact that it is still A BUNCH OF SHIT. Our country is not based on freedom. It’s based on kicking ass. This is how it has always been, and this is how it must continue to be in order for us to keep our precious freedoms. ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/71 "2001-10-11T17:33:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Is God not timeless? > > Depens on one’s definition of god. After all, there are still extant relgions which postulate gods who are born, fight each other, and then die. > > You evidently are not able to distinguish between the particular form of relgion you protest against and all other forms of religion. \*\* evidently you aren’t able to see no one here is still considering such anthropomorhic, born and fighting, god’s. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/72 "2001-10-11T18:04:54Z")
“It takes two people to have a proper insult: one to deliver it, and one to be insulted.” No prob, E.S. – I hang around here because I love to argue logically, and it’s one of the best places off a college campus to get into _intelligent_ debates where people make sensible points. And I can understand your being frazzled by the “God says it, I believe it, that settles it” bunch. But that does not describe the overwhelming majority of us here, Christian or not. So, make your case. Up to this point you’ve said that we (i.e., the U.S.) should take it over as a strategic location to have a “state” (presumably meaning one of the presently-50 sovereign units indissolubly joined together to constitute the U.S.) and eradicate Islam there (contrary to our fundamental laws). And you’ve been offended by people pointing to our basic ideals because historically we have been guilty of oppression of Native Americans, Blacks, ethnic Japanese, and others. (And there are obvious cases of ethnic, sexual, and sexual-preference oppression continuing today here and there, a point you failed to make.) It would seem that your point, such as it is, is that might makes right. I would honestly like to see you express what you’re driving at in this series of posts more clearly – obviously you have an issue about which you feel strongly that this thread has triggered, and I may be shortsighted (I was called that by a fundamentalist earlier this year for accepting evolution, so it _must_ be true :rolleyes: ), but I fail to see where you’re going other than just venting (we have a location for that, too: the Pit, and it’s sometimes fun, but it’s inappropriate here, by common consent.) Please spell out in more detail what you expect to see done, both w/r/t Afghanistan and w/r/t U.S. as a nation with a mixed past and a set of high-minded ideals. I do look forward to seeing what you think. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319/73 "2001-10-11T18:23:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Is God not timeless? > > > > Depen[d]s on one’s definition of god. After all, there are still extant relgions which postulate gods who are born, fight each other, and then die. > > > > You evidently are not able to distinguish between the particular form of relgion you protest against and all other forms of religion. > > evidently you aren’t able to see no one here is still considering such anthropomorhic, born and fighting, god’s. I believe there’s at least one Hindu posting on this board; and there are certainly quite a few Hindus in the United States. There are also animists, followers of traditional Chinese religions, and other “anthropomorphic” relgions in this land. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-just-take-afghanistan/86319.md?page=3)