# Should we make all kids go to Public schools? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043 "2018-04-08T23:56:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/201 "2018-04-11T04:21:32Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is that true though? My kids’ school is pretty racially integrated. There was talk about redistricting the schools to move some kids from a high performing school to a low performing school. During the parent meetings, only the performance record of the school was discussed, the races of the kids never even came up. Why would any parent in their right mind want their kids to move from a high performing school to a low performing school? > > I just don’t get that. If the low performing school gets less money per kid, or lacks in other resources, there is good reason to demand the lower school gets upgraded. That was not the case in my example, and moving the kids raised the scores. And most parents these days are smart enough to not bring up race even if it is really what is going on. ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/202 "2018-04-11T06:48:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This reads very much like you’re unhappy with saying racism has anything to do with the achievement gap between black students and white students, so you want to exclude that possibility, and instead blame it on the inferiority of black parents. > > This is primarily a problem of white culture, not black culture. > > When I put the adjective “structural” in front of “racism,” do you understand what that means? > > I see nothing illegal about it. Never did I say that black parents were inferior. The achievement gap may be due to a community/cultural issue endemic to black communities. This is not because of some deliberate, indirect or effectual plan by whites to cause this educational problem, which is what you are asserting throughout your posts. This is not structural racism. If whites leave the school and the GPA of the student body is still in the shitter, who is to blame for that? It is not white people. It is the schools. Blaming someone else for wanting better options for their child when others can’t do the same is not racism in any sense. Blaming whites for the academic performance of blacks is juvenile and ill informed. The schools that do good, get more money to keep encouraging growth, that is how it works, maybe it is not “fair” but you know what, a lot of life isn’t and in this respect it has nothing to do with racism. It really seems like you are reaching for a narrative and the “easy out” which is to blame someone for someone elses problems. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/203 "2018-04-11T10:54:24Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > Never did I say that black parents were inferior. The achievement gap may be due to a community/cultural issue endemic to black communities. And that about sums it up, doesn’t it? You deny saying black parents are inferior, and then in your next sentence lay the blame on the entire black community. Not all racism is structural. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/204 "2018-04-11T12:35:31Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Why is it my responsibility to do more for other people’s children than they are willing to do themselves? Like I said - _noblesse oblige_. If you don’t send your children to a crappy school, the other students at the crappy school don’t have the benefit of seeing how a good student behaves, the teachers at the crappy school have the benefit of a well-behaved student that they don’t have to worry about, when your child acts up they can discipline and that makes it look less like racial profiling, etc. You have the responsibility of fixing the problems of other people, that you didn’t cause, and that they are unable or unwilling to address. White privilege, in other words. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/205 "2018-04-11T12:39:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Like I said - _noblesse oblige_. When you work hard to misunderstand what folks are saying, I suppose it becomes much more comfortable to maintain your current beliefs. So well done you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/206 "2018-04-11T12:52:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Like I said - _noblesse oblige_. If you don’t send your children to a crappy school, the other students at the crappy school don’t have the benefit of seeing how a good student behaves, the teachers at the crappy school have the benefit of a well-behaved student that they don’t have to worry about, when your child acts up they can discipline and that makes it look less like racial profiling, etc. You have the responsibility of fixing the problems of other people, that you didn’t cause, and that they are unable or unwilling to address. White privilege, in other words. > > Regards, > Shodan Dismissing and belittling the opinions of those that disagree is easy. Nuanced discussion on challenging topics is hard. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/207 "2018-04-11T13:04:58Z")
Calling “structural racism” and “white supremacy” every time you lose an argument is easy too. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/208 "2018-04-11T13:10:13Z")
Isnt it also racist to tell a black kid that he/she cannot learn or behave correctly unless they are sitting next to a white kid? ---
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/209 "2018-04-11T13:10:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And that about sums it up, doesn’t it? You deny saying black parents are inferior, and then in your next sentence lay the blame on the entire black community. > > Not all racism is structural. I don’t understand why pride doesn’t kick in? If I were a member of the Black community and Whites were fleeing my school, my attitude would be to make my school the best it could be out of spite alone. Why don’t the Black communities rally behind their schools? You’re going to say that schools cannot function unless they are properly funded and that is factually incorrect in many cases. Even if this is correct, are you saying Blacks lack the strength and fortitude to overcome this obstacle? I send my children to a private Christian school, and my fellow parents volunteer extensively to make the school work. We sacrifice to send our children to this school to shield them from the anti-social behavior of the children and parents of public schools. I attended inner city public schools so nobody needs to lecture me on what goes on in those places. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/210 "2018-04-11T13:20:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Dismissing and belittling the opinions of those that disagree is easy. Nuanced discussion on challenging topics is hard. I suppose you think “Racist! Resegregation!” counts as nuanced discussion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/211 "2018-04-11T13:24:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Calling “structural racism” and “white supremacy” every time you lose an argument is easy too. > > Regards, > Shodan In case you missed it, I was criticizing your refusal to consider nuance and engage thoughtfully with **LHoD** ’s argument, rather than kneejerk snark and silliness. I’d similarly criticize anyone who argued by doing nothing more than saying “structural racism” and “white supremacy” without any actual nuance and thoughtfulness, but I haven’t seen that in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/212 "2018-04-11T13:38:07Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This is somewhat harsh. What is the right thing for me to do? Ensure my kids get the best education they can, or try to improve local schools by .0001 %? Well if your like me you DO help more kids than just your own. In my kids school we do that thru the PTA and other things. Consider: My kids elementary school, [Trailwood Elementary](http://www.trailwoodpta.com/) had 400 kids. My donating my time and money to the school (work days, back to school nights, teacher appreciation events, etc…)l and the PTA helps not just those 400 kids but also means better kids going to [Indian Woods](https://www.greatschools.org/kansas/shawnee-mission/1161-Indian-Woods-Middle-School/) middle school (grades 7-8) of 764 kids and to [Shawnee Mission South](https://www.greatschools.org/kansas/shawnee-mission/1166-Shawnee-Mission-South-High-School/)high school of 1,392 kids. SMS also has a "Dad’s’ group which also helps the school which I am a part of. As for the greater Shawnee Mission school district, me helping to vote for bond issues and increased state funding does help it. So I AM helping other kids. YES. The kids in OUR district. DO I have an obligation to help the mostly black and VERY messed up Kansas City Missouri school district- Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/213 "2018-04-11T13:43:13Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > I don’t understand why pride doesn’t kick in? If I were a member of the Black community and Whites were fleeing my school, my attitude would be to make my school the best it could be out of spite alone. Why don’t the Black communities rally behind their schools? They have in Kansas city where they created an [African centered school](https://www.kcpublicschools.org/site/default.aspx?PageType=3&DomainID=851&ModuleInstanceID=5085&ViewID=6446EE88-D30C-497E-9316-3F8874B3E108&RenderLoc=0&FlexDataID=34523&PageID=2342) just for black kids. Their isnt a damn reason an all black school cannot have the same achievements as an all white school. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/214 "2018-04-11T14:26:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I suppose you think “Racist! Resegregation!” counts as nuanced discussion. What counts as nuanced discussion is citing multiple articles and court cases and historical phenomena that affect what’s going on in education today. What doesn’t count as nuanced discussion is hand-waving away all the evidence in favor of twaddling accusations of conspiracy-mongering. This is an issue with plenty of research behind it. I’ve cited that research, and nobody has come close to offering a rebuttal of it. Instead, people are all, “O NOES YOU MENTIONED RACISM LEMME SEE IF I CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO ACCUSE YOU OF BEING TEH REAL RACIST!!!” I’m pretty comfortable with the level of nuance I’ve added to the discussion. Are you comfortable with yours? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/215 "2018-04-11T14:29:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In case you missed it, I was criticizing your refusal to consider nuance and engage thoughtfully with **LHoD** ’s argument, rather than kneejerk snark and silliness. I’d similarly criticize anyone who argued by doing nothing more than saying “structural racism” and “white supremacy” without any actual nuance and thoughtfulness, but I haven’t seen that in this thread. In the interests of nuanced discussion, I will simply say that your post is beneath contempt and leave it at that. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well if your like me you DO help more kids than just your own. > > In my kids school we do that thru the PTA and other things. The point of getting kids from higher-performing schools into failing schools is to get their parents involved, because the existing parents can’t or won’t do that. They want the students to get the averages up, and they want the parents to get parental involvement up. It’s a tough sell, I grant you - “we can’t fix the school, put your kids into it so we look better, and we need stable families to deal with the large number of broken or never-formed families that are the source of our failure”, but maybe some parents can be guilted into it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/216 "2018-04-11T14:38:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > In the interests of nuanced discussion, I will simply say that your post is beneath contempt and leave it at that. This saddens me. Sometimes you put in a lot of effort to engage with those you disagree with. It’s especially tough on difficult topics like this, but I’m saddened that you’re not even willing to try. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/217 "2018-04-11T14:41:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This saddens me. Sometimes you put in a lot of effort to engage with those you disagree with. It’s especially tough on difficult topics like this, but I’m saddened that you’re not even willing to try. To be fair, he engaged in some foolish point-twisting mockery of me, before, and I told him it was beneath contempt. That apparently upset him, so now when you’re trying to get him to engage, he’s mocking you and me both by repeating what I said to him. Maybe he thinks that I owe him substantive thoughtful debate in response to his vapid mockery; or maybe he thinks petulant turnabout is fair play; or maybe he just has no interest in substantive debate whatsoever. I can’t pretend to imagine what his motivation is. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/218 "2018-04-11T14:49:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is an issue with plenty of research behind it. I’ve cited that research, and nobody has come close to offering a rebuttal of it. Instead, people are all, “O NOES YOU MENTIONED RACISM LEMME SEE IF I CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO ACCUSE YOU OF BEING TEH REAL RACIST!!!” That’s not entirely fair. While I don’t think anyone has taken up the challenge of addressing the research, **Bone** and **manson** have at least engaged in a thoughtful, civil conversation about the challenges of integration and the choices that folks face. The “O NOES” terrified of mentions of racism posts are real loud in this thread, but they’re not the only posts. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/219 "2018-04-11T14:52:01Z")
I will also praise **Bone** and **manson** as good examples of those who disagree but made real efforts to engage. Good on you two, and may others seek to emulate your example! ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/220 "2018-04-11T15:04:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > … Are you comfortable with yours? Yes, and to offer you some praise, I think some of your posts have added nuance. However, this was your second post in the thread: > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > For taking one small action that, in the aggregate, leads to resegregation of schools, damning a generation of African American school children to a subpar education that will act as an anchor on their dreams for the rest of their lives? You bet your sweet bippy I blame those parents. > > If your local school ain’t up to standards, get involved. Make it better. Don’t go for the white supremacist resegregationist solution. Why did you throw “white supremacist” in there? It came across like you were trying to tar parents that move their kids to better schools as white supremacists. It came across as ugly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043.md?page=12)