# Should we make all kids go to Public schools? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043 "2018-04-08T23:56:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/301 "2018-04-13T17:38:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Schools are based on property taxes, so yeah, if the tax base decreases, then the schools have less money to work with. > > Sunny Daze had an example. iiandyiiii also pointed out examples of communities and institutions that were destroyed by being broken up. > > I don’t have an kids in the school system, what refund do I get on my taxes for not using up school resources? > How is it underperforming? It is in the top 10% in the state. Is that not high enough performance for you? Should we break up all the schools that are in the bottom 90%? How does that work? > It is only confusing to those who do not recognize that it is complex. There is no overlap there. You think the solution is simple, and you advocate shutting down schools if they are not in the top 5% or so. That is a simple solution, but it is a terrible solution. Actually, what I find confusing is you talking about black communities in totality and then pointing to one location that isn’t all that black (30% white) and talking about it like it is across the US (in that way) It isn’t. The underperforming schools (ALL of them) should be broken up and bussed to the better performing schools (in small enough amounts to affect the change). If that school is doing fine, then great on them! But I am only talking about a fix for the underperforming ones. You keep conflating the issues of what you see as racist and the school dilemma. I am only talking about the education gap. 1 at a time. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/302 "2018-04-13T17:40:05Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Great! You do realize that one of the best ways to fix these communities is through education right? Sure , which is why there is a fix proposed. That some of you either cant see the forest through the trees, or you are concerned about something different than education. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/303 "2018-04-13T17:47:27Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Sure , which is why there is a fix proposed. That some of you either cant see the forest through the trees, or you are concerned about something different than education. I don’t follow. What forest am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/304 "2018-04-13T18:23:51Z")
Post 301 among others. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/305 "2018-04-13T18:52:22Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Actually, what I find confusing is you talking about black communities in totality and then pointing to one location that isn’t all that black (30% white) and talking about it like it is across the US (in that way) I do find confusing that I ask why you think that a high diversity school should be broken up, and you reply by saying that it is underperforming. It’s not, it’s just highly diverse. Still doesn’t prevent white families from moving out of the districts for whiter schools. I also wonder why you think that I was talking about black communities in totality, when I was talking about communities that had large black populations. Those are not the same things. > [@](#): > > It isn’t. The underperforming schools (ALL of them) should be broken up and bussed to the better performing schools (in small enough amounts to affect the change). If that school is doing fine, then great on them! But I am only talking about a fix for the underperforming ones. You keep conflating the issues of what you see as racist and the school dilemma. I am only talking about the education gap. > > 1 at a time. What is an underperforming school in your opinion? Bottom 5%, 10%, 25%, 50%? If there is a school that is just under your cutoff, would you give it a chance to see if it can be improved, or just break it up? If it happens to have a great band program or sports program, or the students and community take pride in it, but the funding has been lacking so test scores are not as good as the schools with more funding, is breaking up that school the best thing to do? If you have a school that has quite a number of highly gifted students who are on college track, but also has a fair number of students that are not motivated, due to home and personal issues, to do much academically, is breaking up that school actually going to help anyone? Schools are part of the community, and the community is part of the school. If the only thing that you are concerned about is the education gap, and you are willing to ignore possible harms to the community in your efforts to see an increase in test scores, then you are missing more than just a forest as you point out twigs. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/306 "2018-04-13T18:57:35Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Schools are based on property taxes, so yeah, if the tax base decreases, then the schools have less money to work with But won’t there be fewer students to teach? Therefore, the school doesn’t need as much money. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/307 "2018-04-13T19:11:00Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Post 301 among others. Still not clear on what forest I am missing. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/308 "2018-04-13T19:16:04Z")
We should not be forcing young people to waste a good chunk of their lives sitting in a classroom learning mostly useless information. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/309 "2018-04-13T19:16:31Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > But won’t there be fewer students to teach? Therefore, the school doesn’t need as much money. It’s not that clearcut. Tenure and other teacher contract items can make it difficult to layoff teachers (this can differ greatly in different areas depending on the contracts they negotiated). Then you have the physical building and grounds whose cost to maintain does not really diminish with fewer students. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/310 "2018-04-13T19:25:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It’s not that clearcut. Tenure and other teacher contract items can make it difficult to layoff teachers (this can differ greatly in different areas depending on the contracts they negotiated). Seems like something that could be fixed. > [@](#): > > Then you have the physical building and grounds whose cost to maintain does not really diminish with fewer students. I admit, I’ve got nothing for this. But on a related note, when the white families move out, aren’t other non-white families moving in? Or are we just positing that the houses formerly owned by white people are just abandoned for all time? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/311 "2018-04-13T19:27:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > But won’t there be fewer students to teach? Therefore, the school doesn’t need as much money. Depends on exactly how they lose the kids. My kids’ parochial school covered pre-K through 8th grade. Let’s say they have 300 kids total, 30 in each class/grade. They lose 30 kids. If they lose three kids from each class, the school will only save on consumables- they will use less soap, less paper etc. Teachers don’t get paid less for teaching 27 kids and their benefits don’t cost less because they are only teaching 27 kids. Because the school was so small, there was one principal and one secretary, so they couldn’t cut back any more on that. The only way to save more money than the costs of soap, etc is to get rid of some program altogether - but that only works if there is an optional program that can be given up without affecting the rankings. ``` Now if losing 30 kids meant they lost the entire second-grade class, that would save a more substantial amount of money. But as long as they have a second-grade class, the costs for it will be virtually the same whether there are 10 kids in the class or 30. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/312 "2018-04-13T20:10:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I do find confusing that I ask why you think that a high diversity school should be broken up, and you reply by saying that it is underperforming. It’s not, it’s just highly diverse. Still doesn’t prevent white families from moving out of the districts for whiter schools. > > I also wonder why you think that I was talking about black communities in totality, when I was talking about communities that had large black populations. Those are not the same things. > What is an underperforming school in your opinion? Bottom 5%, 10%, 25%, 50%? If there is a school that is just under your cutoff, would you give it a chance to see if it can be improved, or just break it up? If it happens to have a great band program or sports program, or the students and community take pride in it, but the funding has been lacking so test scores are not as good as the schools with more funding, is breaking up that school the best thing to do? > > If you have a school that has quite a number of highly gifted students who are on college track, but also has a fair number of students that are not motivated, due to home and personal issues, to do much academically, is breaking up that school actually going to help anyone? > > Schools are part of the community, and the community is part of the school. If the only thing that you are concerned about is the education gap, and you are willing to ignore possible harms to the community in your efforts to see an increase in test scores, then you are missing more than just a forest as you point out twigs. Sounds to me like that one school you are referring to is doing fine, no need to educate the educated. Who are we trying to educate? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/313 "2018-04-13T20:45:23Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Sounds to me like that one school you are referring to is doing fine, no need to educate the educated. > > Who are we trying to educate? Kids. No matter how good a school system they are in, they don’t start out educated. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/314 "2018-04-13T21:14:08Z")
I yearn for the olden days, when Americans understood there was a middle ground between black and white, that the Liberty to send one’s children to private schools could be combined with the Responsibility to provide good public education for those who want it. For example, we can require all taxpayers to contribute to public schools whether their children attend public schools or not, or in fact whether they even have children or not. In post-rational America many seem to think that Hyperlibertarianism and Marxism are the only two options available to us. > [@octopus](#): > > No. We shouldn’t be mandated to crappy service with no real recourse… It’s smart of you to acknowledge that [private schools and privately-operated charter schools often provide crappy service in comparison with public schools](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2016/12/08/a-sobering-look-at-what-betsy-devos-did-to-education-in-michigan-and-what-she-might-do-as-secretary-of-education/?utm_term=.5ba1bf0815b1) but noone except [Betsy DeVos](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/03/12/devos-michigan-schools-60-minutes/416111002/) and her ilk advocates _mandating_ that children attend such inferior schools. AFAICT, DeVos’ strategy for making her private schools look better than public schools is to deliberately sabotage public schools. IIRC, she is on record as proposing that _reducing_ their revenue is the way to _improve_ public schools. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![WillReadmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@WillReadmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillReadmore)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/315 "2018-04-13T21:39:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I yearn for the olden days, when Americans understood there was a middle ground between black and white, that the Liberty to send one’s children to private schools could be combined with the Responsibility to provide good public education for those who want it. For example, we can require all taxpayers to contribute to public schools whether their children attend public schools or not, or in fact whether they even have children or not. > > In post-rational America many seem to think that Hyperlibertarianism and Marxism are the only two options available to us. > > It’s smart of you to acknowledge that [private schools and privately-operated charter schools often provide crappy service in comparison with public schools](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2016/12/08/a-sobering-look-at-what-betsy-devos-did-to-education-in-michigan-and-what-she-might-do-as-secretary-of-education/?utm_term=.5ba1bf0815b1) but noone except [Betsy DeVos](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/03/12/devos-michigan-schools-60-minutes/416111002/) and her ilk advocates _mandating_ that children attend such inferior schools. > > AFAICT, DeVos’ strategy for making her private schools look better than public schools is to deliberately sabotage public schools. IIRC, she is on record as proposing that _reducing_ their revenue is the way to _improve_ public schools. 😕 Amen. It’s more of the “it’s all about the money” approach to education. Things like curricula, class size, methods used by successful public schools, etc., get ignored - or they get turned into being purely about money. ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/316 "2018-04-14T10:59:39Z")
Who remembers President Carter participating in a live phone in show with Walter Cronkite hosting? Millions of people called in to ask President Carter questions - one person who got through to the line asked why he sent his daughter to a public school. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/317 "2018-04-14T13:12:47Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Sure , which is why there is a fix proposed. That some of you either cant see the forest through the trees, or you are concerned about something different than education. Your fix is both impractical and simplistic. A true fix is going to require a lot of work, a lot of changes to our society, a lot of different particulars based on different communities. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2018, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/318 "2018-04-16T04:26:28Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > There’s home schooling and then there’s home schooling. > > Home schooling to isolate kids from the influence of dangerous things like thinking for yourself and learning about the world is far too common. It’s mostly religious. > > snip. Yep. My older niece is pregnant with her third kid and is already determined that all of the kids she ever has will be home-schooled. Reasons: 1. She and her husband will not vaccinate; 2. She doesn’t want the kiddos learning that the Earth is really old, and who knows what else. I could intervene and corrupt and try to subvert the kids but I’m sure that would set off WWIII within the fam. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/319 "2018-04-16T12:30:46Z")
We ended up homeschooling for two years in the Midwest simply because we knew we were moving back east and were falling behind. We once went to some local homeschoolers group meeting and…wow. The crazy was strong. But I’m sure glad we had the option. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/320 "2018-04-16T22:00:16Z")
The Kansas City Missouri school district is so bad even black families move out. Which is even worse than losing white families because at least these black parents cared about their kids and the school. I talked to one coworker (black) who was frustrated by this because he wanted to stay and help the black community but he was so angry at the schools. I told him he should think of his kids first and he could find schools in the suburbs with at least some minority kids and with good academics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043.md?page=17)