# Should we make all kids go to Public schools? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043 "2018-04-08T23:56:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/101 "2018-04-10T02:56:05Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Then why dont they walk the talk? > > I’ve known many liberals in my life. > > NEVER have I seen one send their kid to an all black inner city school. You do know it is mostly illegal and rather hard to send your kids to a school outside their district? And exactly what would this prove? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/102 "2018-04-10T03:00:25Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It’s at the forefront of his. And your child should be at the forefront of yours. Thanks for telling me that! My kids are at the forefront of my concern, **to the extent that I’m not fucking over other people**. The pattern of white flight from public schools, started with integration and exacerbated by the charter/voucher movement, is a perfect example of fucking over other people in order to advantage one’s own offspring; I find that behavior understandable but reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/103 "2018-04-10T03:02:19Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > So kids with far less opportunity to develop social skills have better social skills? That’s out-and-out bullshit on its face. It is and it isn’t. “Homeschooling” covers a lot of ground. It covers everything from parents who isolate their children from everyone outside the family to parents who figure if they homeschool, their kid can take 8 AP tests rather than the four offered at the local high school and allow their children to participate in school and community based activities (scouts ,sports, drama clubs ,dance classes etc) along with the children who attend traditional schools. It is entirely possible that the latter group develops social skills equal to or better than those attending public schools. Because the only difference between them is where they take their academic classes. ``` The part that's bullshit is using the studies that are based on a self-selected, almost certainly unrepresentative subgroup to say something about homeschooling in general, as if the people who sit their children down with workbooks and isolate them from their peers are not also homeschooling. I don't know if **Shodan** is doing that - but I know plenty of other people do. ``` ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/104 "2018-04-10T03:18:55Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It’s at the forefront of his. And your child should be at the forefront of yours. Anyone who isn’t going to put their child first shouldn’t reproduce. Can’t afford to educate? Keep it zipped. Did you personally pay the entire bill for having your child’s school built? Did you personally pay the entire cost of all the roads that go near it? Did you personally cover the cost of the entire fire department and the entire police department and pay the school’s water bill, and replace the sewer pipes and broken windows and re-seed the playing field by yourself in your spare time? Aren’t taxes a brilliant invention? Or should you perhaps have kept it zipped as well? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/105 "2018-04-10T03:22:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You claimed “_the Amish have a clear, unwavering historical record to point to for why they would not want their kids in modern public schoo_l.” and your response is “I dunno”? > > why did you say that then? Are you just trying to score internet points? If I am wrong say so and enlighten us as to the real reason. For my part the Amish aversion to technology is well established and embedded in their belief system and always has been. I assume that is the reason they don’t want their kids in a modern school but I have not asked them personally. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/106 "2018-04-10T03:29:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I sincerely hope you are right. I do not get the sense that a deep and abiding concern over what’s best for my child is at the forefront of leftist thought on this matter. You make it sound like “leftists” want bad things for your child which is ridiculous. It might be “best” for your child to have slaves working for you so you can maximize your profit and provide better opportunities for your child. Leftist though on that would be it is wrong and immoral. You and your kid should not profit off the misfortune of others. So too leaving hundreds of kids in shit schools so your kid can have a good one. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/107 "2018-04-10T03:36:16Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > One issue you might not be aware of is many private schools offer scholarships to poor kids. My son used to attend a private Christian school and I think they did about 20 scholarships to inner city black kids from the KCMO projects. > > Plus a factor your not considering is at least a FEW kids are getting a good education at private schools. You may not realize some public schools, like Kansas City Missouri, are so bad they are a futile waste of time for any parent to try. So why not give a few of them a chance? Sure, I wish all of those other KCMO kids could be given a good education but the system wont allow it so you have to weed out the best. See post #46. Private schools in Michigan have caused a state-wide drop in test scores. A precipitous drop. The drop has occurred across all schools and all children regardless of race or anything else. Certainly there are excellent private schools and certainly there are terrible public schools. But there is no evidence that private schools are better for kids than public schools on average and some evidence (as noted in post #46) that private schools are overall a bad thing. So why bother with private schools? Why not take that same money and fix the public schools that need fixing? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/108 "2018-04-10T04:16:34Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > It is and it isn’t. “Homeschooling” covers a lot of ground. It covers everything from parents who isolate their children from everyone outside the family to parents who figure if they homeschool, their kid can take 8 AP tests rather than the four offered at the local high school and allow their children to participate in school and community based activities (scouts ,sports, drama clubs ,dance classes etc) along with the children who attend traditional schools. It is entirely possible that the latter group develops social skills equal to or better than those attending public schools. Because the only difference between them is where they take their academic classes. > > ``` > The part that's bullshit is using the studies that are based on a self-selected, almost certainly unrepresentative subgroup to say something about homeschooling in general, as if the people who sit their children down with workbooks and isolate them from their peers are not also homeschooling. I don't know if **Shodan** is doing that - but I know plenty of other people do. > > ``` True. I can certainly believe that there are some students that thrive under home schooling, but it requires a certain kind of student, a certain kind of parent, and a good curriculum. I think that home schoolers and their curriculum need to be carefully monitored to make sure that they are receiving at least as good an education as they could in a public school. If they are found to be wanting then I have no problem forcing the child to attend public school. The goal is to avoid horror stories like [this](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/17/parents-tortured-13-children-no-oversight-california-home-school), and miseducation like [this](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/03/old-earth-young-minds-evangelical-homeschoolers-embrace-evolution/273844/), [this](http://cwmemory.com/2009/07/04/the-war-between-the-states-homeschool-style/)and [this](http://gawker.com/the-duggar-homeschool-programs-terrifying-advice-on-sex-1706406324) ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/109 "2018-04-10T04:32:24Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So why bother with private schools? Why not take that same money and fix the public schools that need fixing? The analogy I would point to is that you have a leaky boat, you can either do your best to patch up the leaks, or you can rip boards out of the hull to make lifeboats for a few lucky kids, and leave the rest to drown. The key is that the kids that get to ride in the life boat are the “right” sort, while those that drown are the “wrong” sort. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/110 "2018-04-10T05:09:47Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The analogy I would point to is that you have a leaky boat, you can either do your best to patch up the leaks, or you can rip boards out of the hull to make lifeboats for a few lucky kids, and leave the rest to drown. The key is that the kids that get to ride in the life boat are the “right” sort, while those that drown are the “wrong” sort. How about this one: there’s a train that’s headed for a bridge that’s out. I can either get myself and my kid off, and shout a warning to the others that they should get off too, or I could stay on the train so that the other passengers don’t die alone. I think I’ll take the former option, thanks anyways. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/111 "2018-04-10T05:50:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Sure, you have a choice in the matter; and I have a choice to condemn folks who contribute to resegregation. That’s an easy stance to take when it’s not your kids being victimized. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/112 "2018-04-10T06:41:05Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s an easy stance to take when it’s not your kids being victimized. So a kid going to an integrated school is being victimized? You know white kids get beat up by other white kids in white schools also. Now some private schools encourage diversity, but some seem to exist to discourage it. One of the great things about the public schools in my town is the diversity there. I had no idea of the race and nationality of a lot of the kids my kids talked about until I met them. They are a lot better at this than I am, because I grew up in a world where a lot of bigotry was okay and pretty universal - and I grew up in the North, with mostly liberal parents. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/113 "2018-04-10T06:53:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So a kid going to an integrated school is being victimized? > You know white kids get beat up by other white kids in white schools also. … Sure, it happens. Do you have any remotely-educated guesses about which type of school sees more violence? ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/114 "2018-04-10T08:10:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Thanks for telling me that! My kids are at the forefront of my concern, **to the extent that I’m not fucking over other people**. The pattern of white flight from public schools, started with integration and exacerbated by the charter/voucher movement, is a perfect example of fucking over other people in order to advantage one’s own offspring; I find that behavior understandable but reprehensible. How is that reprehensible? Flight happens only because something else becomes more desirable than the former situation. If you move your kids to a different area with better schools and less crime and the area or school they left gets worse, its not their fault. If given the opportunity to do so it is just sound reasoning and there is nothing reprehensible about it. If one argues the opposite, either they are confused with community activism and responsibility, have a political agenda or don’t care about their kids or have a wildly inefficient personal system of priorities. What you are saying sounds an awful lot like “Its not fair when whites leave because then the schools get worse” when you reference fucking people over by leaving. As if without whites the school will be in complete turmoil. You know what that sounds like don’t you? Just letting you know. ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/115 "2018-04-10T08:46:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So a kid going to an integrated school is being victimized? > You know white kids get beat up by other white kids in white schools also. Not in my experience. Just being honest here. It has a lot to do with black community involvement in the schools, or lackthereof. It was nearly always black on white/hispanic/asian when it came to violence. Especially during recruitment season/summer (gang initiation - random violence/robbery so potential members could prove their worth to the gangs-they did so by jumping and robbing whites and asians). It wasn’t always that violent, it was after an in-school miniature police station (staffed by CPD officers) was closed around the same time the metal detectors were shut off, because it was creating a “threatening environment for minority students”. That is when it got worse. Luckily around the time I was a senior and had only 4 classes left so I could get the hell out of there early. I learned how not to get jumped after a while, and had to carry a weapon with me just in case/even the odds (metal detectors were shut off, so most people did). Now I hear people talk about the school like its so great now. My honest guess is because the nearby housing projects were closed and the criminal element that came with it left. The school was still majority black by the time I graduated, but the violence had stopped and the schools administration was replaced, so it wasn’t necessarily a racial thing, but there seemed to be a correlation. They got so much damned funding too, ever coercing us into writing letters and shit for donations in our Divisions maybe 3-4 times a year, letting us know when the school received money, but nothing changed. I think the [old] staff pocketed it to be honest. Never seen an improvement until the aforementioned happened (new staff/closed projects) and by then I did almost 4 years there. (I say ‘Did’ because it felt like what I imagine prison would be like, except we didn’t have internet access) Just sharing my experience with it all, these are just my observations regardless of how it sounds or seems (for those who really want to brand me a racist/looking for an excuse). The same can’t be said of all public schools, but my experience has tainted my view of them forever. No kid should have to deal with that bullshit. If any others are like it, they should be closed and restaffed. I will never, ever let my kid go to an inner-city school, I’d rather homeschool them. Best benefit of going to a public school is that I don’t have to give a shit about my grammar and punctuation, I always have something/someone else to blame! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/116 "2018-04-10T10:39:10Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > How is that reprehensible? Flight happens only because something else becomes more desirable than the former situation. If you move your kids to a different area with better schools and less crime and the area or school they left gets worse, its not their fault. If given the opportunity to do so it is just sound reasoning and there is nothing reprehensible about it. If one argues the opposite, either they are confused with community activism and responsibility, have a political agenda or don’t care about their kids or have a wildly inefficient personal system of priorities. > > What you are saying sounds an awful lot like “Its not fair when whites leave because then the schools get worse” when you reference fucking people over by leaving. As if without whites the school will be in complete turmoil. You know what that sounds like don’t you? Just letting you know. But the perception that the school is so bad that it will ruin your kids, and your only choice is to move them to a more affluent, whiter environment isn’t obviously supported. In Dallas, we have an enclave suburb, Highland Park, with a free-and-reduced lunch rate of 0% and average house prices of well over $1M–which is a lot in Texas. Their test scores are things of beauty. Dallas schools have an 88% free-and-reduced lunch rate and all the problems associated with a large urban district. But when you compare the test scores of non-poor white kids, [Dallas and Highland Park](https://medium.com/themap/is-disd-a-better-school-district-than-highland-park-10db6ff26b17)are neck and neck, with Dallas outscoring Highland Park half the time. And when you compare non-poor white kids in Dallas to non-poor white kids in Plano–the more traditional upper-middle class suburb–Dallas kids do better on almost every state assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/117 "2018-04-10T10:46:42Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > How is that reprehensible? Flight happens only because something else becomes more desirable than the former situation. Right: it’s desirable for the beneficiaries of white supremacy not to have to go to school with the victims of white supremacy. I get that. It also perpetuates white supremacy, which is reprehensible. > [@](#): > > What you are saying sounds an awful lot like “Its not fair when whites leave because then the schools get worse” when you reference fucking people over by leaving. As if without whites the school will be in complete turmoil. You know what that sounds like don’t you? Just letting you know. I super know what that sounds like: it sounds like our society is racist, but people don’t like talking about it, so the beneficiaries of racism like to say, “Guess what, YOU’RE the real racist!” when anyone points out what’s going on. Just letting you know. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/118 "2018-04-10T11:51:55Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Did you personally pay the entire bill for having your child’s school built? Did you personally pay the entire cost of all the roads that go near it? Did you personally cover the cost of the entire fire department and the entire police department and pay the school’s water bill, and replace the sewer pipes and broken windows and re-seed the playing field by yourself in your spare time? > > Aren’t taxes a brilliant invention? Or should you perhaps have kept it zipped as well? When I choose to drive, I pay a user fee for roads that probably should be increased. When I lived in IL you could choose to forego your share of the fire department. They’d let your house burn. Just like I didn’t build the deli next door or fix its windows, because amortized capital and maintenance costs are built into the overhead on my purchases, they are or can be built into tuition. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/119 "2018-04-10T11:55:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Thanks for telling me that! My kids are at the forefront of my concern, **to the extent that I’m not fucking over other people**. The pattern of white flight from public schools, started with integration and exacerbated by the charter/voucher movement, is a perfect example of fucking over other people in order to advantage one’s own offspring; I find that behavior understandable but reprehensible. Every dollar you spend on your kid above and beyond the bare minimum is a dollar that could be spent on my child. If you decide not to subsidize my questionable _choice_, you’re not the one doing the fucking over. I did it. People here, poor people, minorities, like the charters and vouchers. But I’m sure you know better what’s good for them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043/120 "2018-04-10T12:09:04Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Every dollar you spend on your kid above and beyond the bare minimum is a dollar that could be spent on my child. If you decide not to subsidize my questionable _choice_, you’re not the one doing the fucking over. I did it. Okay, boss. > [@](#): > > People here, poor people, minorities, like the charters and vouchers. Cite? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-make-all-kids-go-to-public-schools/812043.md?page=7)