# Should we protect ex-criminals? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2009, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156 "2009-08-12T10:47:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/1 "2009-08-12T10:47:59Z")
Three people are serving sentences for ‘allowing the death’ of a young child. They tore out his fingernails, cut off his finger tips, and broke his back amongst many other forms of general abuse. The mother’s partner has been described as being [fascinated with pain.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7727641.stm) > [@](#): > > \*As a child he tortured guinea pigs, once skinning one alive. He also snapped the legs off a frog. Witnesses in court described him as “simple”, but one of the investigating detectives went much further. She described the 6ft 4in man as “sadistic - fascinated with pain”. > > Barker spent a lot of time alone with Peter, which is when much of the abuse took place. He kept a Rottweiler dog, Kaiser, and it was suggested in court that some of Peter’s injuries might have been inflicted by the animal. > > He was also said to have shaken and punched the little boy, swinging him around by his legs and spinning him round on a chair until he fell off. If he was ever confronted about his treatment of the baby, he claimed he was trying to “toughen him up”. He even tried to train the boy like his dog. When he clicked his fingers, Peter would touch his forehead to the floor for fear of being punished. > > On the day the boy died, paramedics said they found Barker standing in the hallway of the house, apparently unconcerned. Kevin Mansfield, from the London Ambulance Service, told the BBC it was “as if he was just waiting for a bus”. > > In May, Barker was convicted of raping a two-year-old girl. The crime came to light following his arrest over Peter’s death.\* When they are released they are likely to need protection from members of the public. This will cost nearly £1,000,000 a year for the rest of their lives. [Cite](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8196143.stm). In the eyes of the law, they have been punished for their crimes, and on completion of their sentences, are free to continue their lives afresh. Many members of the public are so incensed by their crimes that they feel that only by making the perpetrators suffer, or die, will justice be seen to be done. I suspect that many feel that the only way to assuage their feelings of outrage and disgust is by attacking the perpetrators. The state feels that it has a duty to prevent further crimes being committed. Does the crime remain with the criminal indefinitely, and if so, is it right that ‘justice’ and retribution should be meted out by the mob? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/2 "2009-08-12T11:02:26Z")
Th police should definitely punish the individuals who terminate their worthless lives. That doesn’t mean they should protect them any more than they would protect any other citizen. I’m generally in favor of the police preventing crimes, but not in this case. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/3 "2009-08-12T11:16:25Z")
> [@NineToTheSky](#): > > When they are released they are likely to need protection from members of the public. This will cost nearly £1,000,000 a year for the rest of their lives. [Cite](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8196143.stm). No, the citation does not say this: it is the extra cost _in prison_ for the next year only. Upon release in 5 years, the mother will receive a new identity but not necessarily greater resources in terms of protection (Maxine Carr no longer requires a fortune in protection resources AFAIK). The boyfriend directly responsible (and responsible for other horrific crimes) will be put away for long enough that he will no longer be easily recognisable after release. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/4 "2009-08-12T11:22:10Z")
We do this all this time in the UK. Choose a coupe of hate figures, whip up a media storm so that the public mood is to string them up from the nearest lamppost, and then act outraged when money is spent protecting the targets from the mob. Same happened with Thompson/Venables and Maxine Carr. I have no sympathy at all for such vile people, but I don’t want to live in a society where mob justice is allowed to run free. ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/5 "2009-08-12T11:34:48Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > No, the citation does not say this: it is the extra cost _in prison_ for the next year only. > > Upon release in 5 years, the mother will receive a new identity but not necessarily greater resources in terms of protection (Maxine Carr no longer requires a fortune in protection resources AFAIK). The boyfriend directly responsible (and responsible for other horrific crimes) will be put away for long enough that he will no longer be easily recognisable after release. You’re right: that cite doesn’t say that. But, all the others I’ve read do: > [@](#): > > \*It is almost certain that under human rights laws she will be granted lifelong anonymity once she is freed. > > By claiming that she had the right to a life free from vigilante attacks or intrusion by the media, she would be given a new name, moved to a home equipped with panic buttons and provided with round-the-clock police protection for the rest of her life at an estimated cost to the taxpayer of £1 million a year. > > The same protection may also be given to Barker, 33, who could be free in 12 years. \* from [The Daily Telegraph](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/baby-p/6005916/Baby-P-Peters-killers-named-for-the-first-time-as-Tracey-Connelly-and-Steven-Barker.html) I’ve just seen this, which says > [@](#): > > \*But the cost of protecting them from possible attacks will be around £15,000 a year - far lower than has been claimed. > > Figures of £1million a year are “wildly inaccurate” according to experts with years of experience in monitoring high profile offenders.\* from [here](http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2009/08/12/baby-peter-s-mother-and-lover-to-receive-new-identities-when-they-are-freed-from-prison-86908-21590820/). But my point was not the cost of it; just whether it should be done. Incidentally, I thought the boyfriend got twelve years. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/6 "2009-08-12T11:43:45Z")
> [@NineToTHeSky](#): > > But my point was not the cost of it; just whether it should be done. The police have a mandate to prevent crime. Attacking ex-criminals is a crime. We no longer have the medieval device of declaring people outside the law, setting their _wergild_ at zero or some such. If the police think that installing a panic button in these people’s homes will prevent crime, just as would be the case if the target (_eg._ a witness in a high profile case) had a clean criminal record, I’ll trust their judgement. ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/7 "2009-08-12T11:46:01Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > The police have a mandate to prevent crime. Attacking ex-criminals is a crime. We no longer have the medieval device of declaring people outside the law, setting their _wergild_ at zero or some such. > > If the police think that installing a panic button in these people’s homes will prevent crime, just as would be the case if the target (_eg._ a witness in a high profile case) had a clean criminal record, I’ll trust their judgement. Personally, I agree. The trouble is that there seem to be a large number of people out there who don’t. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/8 "2009-08-12T11:46:18Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > I have no sympathy at all for such vile people, but I don’t want to live in a society where mob justice is allowed to run free. I agree, which is why I believe in “Avenger of Blood” laws. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/9 "2009-08-12T11:47:43Z")
> [@NineToTheSky](#): > > Personally, I agree. The trouble is that there seem to be a large number of people out there who don’t. Well, what do you expect of Daily Telegraph readers? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/10 "2009-08-12T12:00:40Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I agree, which is why I believe in “Avenger of Blood” laws. The trouble with that is that the next of kin is the murderer. I don’t believe in it because justice and retribution should be impersonal and dispassionate. And allowing a member of the public to be an executioner is Not A Good Thing. _(Disclaimer: I hope I’ve understood the laws correctly.)_ ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/11 "2009-08-12T12:28:39Z")
I suppose an early warning sign of trouble would be a dead dog in alley, tire tread on burst stomach. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/12 "2009-08-12T15:24:26Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I agree, which is why I believe in “Avenger of Blood” laws. How utterly barbaric. Might be suitable in the stone-age but hardly applicable today. ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/13 "2009-08-12T15:46:58Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Well, what do you expect of Daily Telegraph readers? 🙂 I don’t think Telegraph readers would ever get round to actually doing anything. You see, they’d have to form a committee, elect a chairperson, write to the letters page… Now, Sun and Mirror readers… ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/14 "2009-08-12T16:37:47Z")
British criminals can be a funny lot. I don’t expect him to survive a protracted jail sentence. I’m sure **casdave** can shed a lot more light on this. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/15 "2009-08-12T17:06:31Z")
> [@NineToTheSky](#): > > Three people are serving sentences for ‘allowing the death’ of a young child. They tore out his fingernails, cut off his finger tips, and broke his back amongst many other forms of general abuse. :eek: How is that not (virtually) a summary life sentence with no hope of release 😕 12 years. Did I read that right? ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/16 "2009-08-12T17:09:00Z")
What’s so great living in a third world country is that if that happens here and a scumbag like him gets incarcerated in the National Prison, I would not spend $500 and that scumbag will get his just deserts inside his cell. And no, I don’t apologize for thinking that would be a great thing. ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/17 "2009-08-12T17:29:26Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > :eek: > > How is that not (virtually) a summary life sentence with no hope of release 😕 > > 12 years. Did I read that right? Well, according to[this site](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6342817.ece) > [@](#): > > \*The mother of Baby P, who can now be called Peter, was given a minimum tariff of five years, her boyfriend ten years and Owen three years. \* But, according to [this site](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6342958.ece) > [@](#): > > \*The indefinite sentence given to Baby P’s mother means that she will remain in prison until the Parole Board decides she is no longer a risk to the public. > > She was given an indeterminate sentence for public protection, which in effect means a person can remain in prison indefinitely. Baby P’s mother will serve a minimum of five years before the Parole Board looks at her case. \* Oh good - maybe just a minimum of five years. That seems right. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/18 "2009-08-12T17:33:17Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > What’s so great living in a third world country is that if that happens here and a scumbag like him gets incarcerated in the National Prison, I would not spend $500 and that scumbag will get his just deserts inside his cell. And no, I don’t apologize for thinking that would be a great thing. This is what I was wondering. So you think that ‘the people’ (in this case, other inmates) should decide on a sentence - possibly death - and carry out that sentence? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/19 "2009-08-12T17:36:05Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > If the police think that installing a panic button in these people’s homes will prevent crime, just as would be the case if the target (_eg._ a witness in a high profile case) had a clean criminal record, I’ll trust their judgement. Installing a panic button in my house might prevent crime. I fail to see why these people deserve it more than I do. (Witnesses are a special case: they are putting themselves at risk by providing a service to the justice system, and the justice system therefore is obligated to take reasonable measures to alleviate that risk.) ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156/20 "2009-08-12T17:40:45Z")
No. I get to decide on the sentence and would have the other inmates execute it. It is not unheard of for the family of an aggrieved party to forgo a criminal trial in lieu of extra-judicial actions which would afford them a lot more in terms of torturing the scumbag. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-protect-ex-criminals/506156.md?page=2)