# Should we say "Amen" after the pledge of allegiance? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 9, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001 "2012-08-09T21:19:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/21 "2012-08-10T00:07:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You don’t _have_ to say the pledge unless you’re a child in a private school (public schools can’t force students to recite it). . . But they certainly can (and do) coerce you in the public schools, and you don’t necessarily even understand the implications of what you’re saying until you’ve been saying it for five or six years. More on topic, what kind of event was this? I didn’t know anyone other than schoolchildren ever recited the pledge. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/22 "2012-08-10T00:36:11Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Also worth noting is the myth that the Supreme Court upheld it as non-religious – they did no such thing (instead weaselling out on a technicality). I’ve heard from legal folks that, given it’s history, it would almost certainly be found unconstitutional even by a conservative Supreme Court if they were forced to rule on the establishment clause. Ahem (PDF) (that link is to the Ninth Circuit opinion upholding “Under God” as constitutional. The case came after the Supreme Court’s “weaselling.” given that the Ninth Circuit s generally regarded as very liberal, can you perhaps further explain your theory about what the Supreme Court would do?) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/23 "2012-08-10T00:37:58Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > But they certainly can (and do) coerce you in the public schools, and you don’t necessarily even understand the implications of what you’re saying until you’ve been saying it for five or six years. > > More on topic, what kind of event was this? I didn’t know anyone other than schoolchildren ever recited the pledge. My fraternal society recites it to open every business meeting. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/24 "2012-08-10T00:50:41Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > IIRC Eugene Debbs wrote it and the “Under Dog” was added by Congress in the fifties. > > **CAPT** Francis Bellamy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/25 "2012-08-10T01:07:49Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > How it is remotely a prayer? It is, as the name implies, a pledge of allegiance. It says “I am on the side of the flag and the country it represents”. the rest is just embellishment. No, it’s a central part of the pledge, which is why people freak out if you suggest getting rid of it. It’s a way of rubbing it in that this is a Christian country, and you aren’t really regarded as a citizen if you aren’t Christian. Outside of a semi-exception for Jews, non-Christian is pretty much equated to “treasonous” by most of the population. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/26 "2012-08-10T01:14:27Z")
It’s both blasphemous and unpatriotic. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/27 "2012-08-10T01:28:00Z")
Never heard it, would surprise me, and I am pretty religious and patriotic. I wouldn’t do it, because I don’t consider it a prayer. I say the pledge at Scout meetings, Chamber of Commerce, School Board and City Council events that I attend. I have never said the pledge at Church, and we don’t put flags in our sanctuary either - no other symbols are allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/28 "2012-08-10T02:27:08Z")
> [@j666](#): > > It’s both blasphemous and unpatriotic. This It basically makes the flag an idol. ---
**Author:** ![claramorena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/2acd7d/32.png) [@claramorena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/claramorena)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/29 "2012-08-10T02:47:29Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > More on topic, what kind of event was this? I didn’t know anyone other than schoolchildren ever recited the pledge. It was a flag raising ceremony for a WW II museum. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/30 "2012-08-10T02:48:37Z")
> [@j666](#): > > It’s both blasphemous and unpatriotic. > [@Zebra](#): > > This > > It basically makes the flag an idol. Saying amen is not blasphemous. Words and patriotism are two different things in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/31 "2012-08-10T03:06:29Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > It basically makes the flag an idol. It is an idol; look at the way Americans idolize it and put it on everything. You’d have to go to Nazi Germany and their mania for sticking the swastika on everything for equivalent behavior (and no, that’s not an attempt to equate the two in any way other than flagphilia). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/32 "2012-08-10T03:18:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It is an idol; look at the way Americans idolize it and put it on everything. You’d have to go to Nazi Germany and their mania for sticking the swastika on everything for equivalent behavior (and no, that’s not an attempt to equate the two in any way other than flagphilia). Idiots confusion between a symbol and what it represents is not the same as idolatry nor analogous to Nazi swastika usage. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/33 "2012-08-10T03:22:36Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Idiots confusion between a symbol and what it represents is not the same as idolatry nor analogous to Nazi swastika usage. The way Americans treat the flag is idolatry. And it seems very similar to how the Nazis loved to drape their flag everywhere and stamp the swastika on everything. I can’t think of anyone else who displayed their national symbols so obsessively. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/34 "2012-08-10T04:03:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The way Americans treat the flag is idolatry. And it seems very similar to how the Nazis loved to drape their flag everywhere and stamp the swastika on everything. I can’t think of anyone else who displayed their national symbols so obsessively. I wonder if any other countries that the equivalent of that horrible, tacky “Americana” style of decor. Even the ones that did put their propaganda all over everything, I don’t know if it was actually used as fashion. If you’re not American or have otherwise somehow managed to avoid this crap, [here](http://www.terrysvillage.com/home-decor/americana-a1-163832+1258-1-1.fltr) it is. See the angel holding the American flag? It turns out that angels are American too. Who knew. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/35 "2012-08-10T04:19:50Z")
I know several Jamaicans who proudly wear their country’s colors every day. Green, gold and black. This does not obviate the notion that draping the American flag about one’s shoulders is tacky. It is merely an observation that other cultures are similarly afflicted by the same bad taste. Though, truthfully, green, gold and black make for a much more interesting fashion motif than red, white and blue. I mean, after all, when you have been raised to wear a traditional suit of blue slacks and coat, white shirt and red tie, pretty much anything else is a relief. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/36 "2012-08-10T04:30:38Z")
But do they take it so far as to have Jamaican flag linens and dishes and statues of angels hugging the Jamaican flag? And are they living in Jamaica? If you’re living in a different country then it makes a little more sense to advertise your origins, but you know those Americans with a house full of Americana decor don’t have any non-Americans into their house anyway, so they’re just preaching to the choir. ---
**Author:** ![kob09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ebca7d/32.png) [@kob09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kob09)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/37 "2012-08-10T04:43:25Z")
noone here (France) says any pledges except soldiers who signed up for doing so… on national holidays or memorial days there are flags on the Mayors office and other official buildings, but that’s it. As for the pledge being religious… I am very happy that church has been taken out of gov/school and any other official activity a loooong time ago 🙂 growing up in Germany it was nearly the other way round… whoever hanged out a personal flag was marked as potential nationalist and nazi… a good way to keep the flagwaving in check ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/38 "2012-08-10T04:43:47Z")
You have a point. I’ll just sit over here in my corner. With my headphones on. Listening to Lee Greenwood’s “God Bless the USA”. Sadly. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/39 "2012-08-10T06:03:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ahem (PDF) > > (that link is to the Ninth Circuit opinion upholding “Under God” as constitutional. The case came after the Supreme Court’s “weaselling.” given that the Ninth Circuit s generally regarded as very liberal, can you perhaps further explain your theory about what the Supreme Court would do?) Might want to get that looked at. As I said in my post, it’s not “my theory,” it’s from conversations with lawyer friends. There usual argument is that since congressional arguments at the time it was modified SAID the modification was to establish America as a Christian nation, that it would fail the test. As for my opinion – it’s mind-boggling clear that this violates the establishment clause, and should have been suspended minutes after passage. But I’m not a lawyer or a judge, just a guy who thinks that “hey, let’s do this to make it clear that America is a religious nation” might be (and I admit, it’s a way-out theory) interpreted as “hey, let’s do this to make it clear that America is a religious nation.” It’s not surprising that it passed in a time of McCarthyist fear, but it is to our nation’s shame that we haven’t reverted it. If it’s such a “meaningless phrase,” as Christians protest, then the pledge would be better off without it anyway. Win, win! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/40 "2012-08-10T08:21:04Z")
I don’t favor American jingoism or religiosity, but find it hard to get outraged by “Amen.” Indeed I’m a little tiny bit outraged at those it outrages! :rolleyes: [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) shows > [@](#): > > amen   > a·men   [ey-men, ah-men] > interjection > > 1. it is so; so be it (used after a prayer, creed, or other formal statement to express solemn ratification or agreement). I see that Old English Bibles sometimes wrote _Swa hit ys_ rather than _Amen_. Is there a Google Translater for Old English? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001.md?page=3)