# Should we say "Amen" after the pledge of allegiance? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 9, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001 "2012-08-09T21:19:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/41 "2012-08-10T10:51:01Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I don’t favor American jingoism or religiosity, but find it hard to get outraged by “Amen.” Indeed I’m a little tiny bit outraged at those it outrages! :rolleyes: > > [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) shows > > I see that Old English Bibles sometimes wrote _Swa hit ys_ rather than _Amen_. Is there a Google Translater for Old English? _Swa hit_= So it = it is so / let it be so. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/42 "2012-08-10T12:11:26Z")
The first guy who runs for president and promises to abolish the POA has my vote. Our schoolkids turn into North Koreans for about 20 seconds every day. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/43 "2012-08-10T17:24:43Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The first guy who runs for president and promises to abolish the POA has my vote. Our schoolkids turn into North Koreans for about 20 seconds every day. Well the Pledge was originally devised by a socialist… Incidentally, this was how the Pledge was done in the old days: [http://forgottenhistoryblog.com/the-official-american-flag-salute-used-to-be-a-hitler-salute/](http://forgottenhistoryblog.com/the-official-american-flag-salute-used-to-be-a-hitler-salute/) ---
**Author:** ![gunnergoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e95f7d/32.png) [@gunnergoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunnergoz)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/44 "2012-08-10T20:24:30Z")
I don’t think true patriots need to trumpet their beliefs and loyalty loudly for public consumption. They are qualities best lived: not recited, rote and routine. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/45 "2012-08-10T23:15:54Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > I wonder if any other countries that the equivalent of that horrible, tacky “Americana” style of decor. Even the ones that did put their propaganda all over everything, I don’t know if it was actually used as fashion. Like this? [http://staceysheppard.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/oversized-union-jack-armchair-with-antiqued-flags.jpg?w=490](http://staceysheppard.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/oversized-union-jack-armchair-with-antiqued-flags.jpg?w=490) [http://chicbuying.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Hunter-boots-Union-Jack-special-edition.jpg](http://chicbuying.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Hunter-boots-Union-Jack-special-edition.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/46 "2012-08-10T23:37:19Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Like this? > > [http://staceysheppard.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/oversized-union-jack-armchair-with-antiqued-flags.jpg?w=490](http://staceysheppard.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/oversized-union-jack-armchair-with-antiqued-flags.jpg?w=490) > > [http://chicbuying.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Hunter-boots-Union-Jack-special-edition.jpg](http://chicbuying.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Hunter-boots-Union-Jack-special-edition.jpg) I don’t know, I can’t tell if those are from UK retailers. I’ve seen American retailers sell stuff like that. But I’d especially like to know if other countries combine religion and patriotism into everything-about-me-centric crap like the [Americana Freedom Cross](http://www.terrysvillage.com/americana-freedom-cross-a2-96_2257.fltr?prodCatId=163832&tabId=1). Jesus doesn’t fucking love America that much, people, stfu. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/47 "2012-08-10T23:40:38Z")
The “under god” was added when I was in HS and from that forward, I have never recited it. No one ever noticed. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/48 "2012-08-10T23:57:20Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Saying amen is not blasphemous. Words and patriotism are two different things in this country. “Amen” is the standard ending to prayers in a religion that specifically proscribes worshipping images. The flag is the prime symbol of a country that specifically proscribes mixing religion and law. I may have my issues with both organized religions and the implementation of patriotism, but even I find the practice breathtakingly offensive to both. (This from a strong environmentalist, since the days we were conservationists, who leaves the porch light burning all night because it shines on the flag my neighbor never takes in or illuminates.) > [@kob09](#): > > noone here (France) says any pledges except soldiers who signed up for doing so.. on national holidays or memorial days there are flags on the Mayors office and other official buildings, but that’s it. > As for the pledge being religious.. I am very happy that church has been taken out of gov/school and any other official activity a loooong time ago 🙂 … And no-one can say the French are not proud of their country. > [@gunnergoz](#): > > I don’t think true patriots need to trumpet their beliefs and loyalty loudly for public consumption. Another strong religious virtue, praying in the back of the temple. > [@Gagundathar](#): > > You have a point. > > I’ll just sit over here in my corner. > > With my headphones on. > > Listening to Lee Greenwood’s “God Bless the USA”. > > Sadly. While I happily will listen to **“An American Child”** and **“An American Saturday Night”.** ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/49 "2012-08-11T00:51:55Z")
> [@j666](#): > > “Amen” is the standard ending to prayers in a religion that specifically proscribes worshipping images. A lot of people especially in the South say “Amen” to mean an emphatic yes sort of like the German “Jawohl!”. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/50 "2012-08-11T01:03:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > A lot of people especially in the South say “Amen” to mean an emphatic yes sort of like the German “Jawohl!”. Don’t get me started. Too late. Are these the same people who leave their flags flying _ **all night without a light?** _ And until it’s a tattered mess? And then **throw it out?** Because, flag-burning is a sin, right? Damn it, I do not worship the American flag, but if you’re going to do something, do it right, and respect what a symbol stands for in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/51 "2012-08-11T01:25:35Z")
A few years ago, I got a temporary federal job for a department that was about to shut down. One of the final steps in the extraordinarily long and complicated initiation process was to take a loyalty oath…which ended in “so help me God”. I’ll be honest…I was stunned. I’ve never had to say that in my _life_, and I grew up with the secure knowledge that this wasn’t Iran and we were not required to bow down to the Invisible Space Fairy\*, _least_ of all a federal worker. But I needed the work, and, heck, I made it that far. I decided to go with it, serve out my term, and then raise a big stink about it if so inclined. As it turns out, the job would present me with far greater hassles than some mildly inappropriate phrasing, and when it was over, I was too busy looking for new work to bother. Anyway, bible-thumpers will be bible-thumpers. The whole point of the Pledge is loyalty, so I don’t find using it as a proselytization vehicle much of a stretch. I do find it a bit odious that it’s essentially forced on people powerless to challenge it, but in all honesty, I can’t remember a single kid who was affected by it at all. And hey, if you want to improve schoolkids’ attitude, there are about 20 things you need to address before some stupid meaningless chant. - I’m sorry, but I just can’t dig “Flying Spaghetti Monster”…it’s such a non-sequitur that it doesn’t even register. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/52 "2012-08-11T01:42:50Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > I do find it a bit odious that it’s essentially forced on people powerless to challenge it, but in all honesty, I can’t remember a single kid who was affected by it at all. You have the occasional kid who refuses to say the “under God” part and gets ostracized by teachers and students alike, and of course beaten up while the teachers look the other way. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/53 "2012-08-11T02:01:54Z")
Beaten up for not saying the pledge? At the public school I went to nobody would have cared if a kid didn’t want to say the pledge at all. Well, we didn’t say it anyway, but maybe they did in the younger grades, I don’t know (I didn’t start there until 8th grade but it was a K-12 school). It was a very non-religious, non-blindly patriotic school. At my Catholic schools though, I don’t think not saying it would have been allowed. It’s not so much that they were so into patriotism as it is that they were so into conformity and obedience. Plus the pledge was said at the same time as morning prayers, and I know you couldn’t have opted out of that. At my daughter’s public school they say it every Monday but there’s an explicit rule that you don’t have to say it if you don’t want to, but you do have to stand up. She says some kids don’t say it, and it’s not an issue. Stupid that it’s ever said at all though, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/54 "2012-08-11T03:25:43Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > No, but we should not be saying a pledge of allegiance anyways. What is this, Soviet Russia? Is there something it actually says that you disagree with? Is there any pledge you would say? To the Constitution, perhaps? To Obama? To the UN? > [@BobLibDem](#): > > ``` > The first guy who runs for president and promises to abolish the POA has my vote. Our schoolkids turn into North Koreans for about 20 seconds every day. > > ``` :rolleyes: > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Outside of a semi-exception for Jews, non-Christian is pretty much equated to “treasonous” by most of the population. Cite? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > It is an idol; look at the way Americans idolize it and put it on everything. You’d have to go to Nazi Germany and their mania for sticking the swastika on everything for equivalent behavior (and no, that’s not an attempt to equate the two in any way other than flagphilia). Odd of you to pick that particular comparison, then. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/55 "2012-08-11T04:06:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You have the occasional kid who refuses to say the “under God” part and gets ostracized by teachers and students alike, and of course beaten up while the teachers look the other way. Hi. I was that kid. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/56 "2012-08-12T05:13:35Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > Is there something it actually says that you disagree with? Is there any pledge you would say? To the Constitution, perhaps? To Obama? To the UN? I think nationalism and patriotism are counterproductive forces, which the pledge reinforces. I think our constitution is outdated, and that we need a new one, so no to that, too. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/57 "2012-08-13T00:03:07Z")
Shit. All this time I’ve been saying “gesundheit” after the pledge. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/58 "2012-08-13T00:15:21Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > Cite? The Pledge itself comes to mind; the whole point of adding “under God” to it and keeping it there is to underline the general assumption that patriotic = Christian. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/59 "2012-08-13T00:19:06Z")
Well, to be fair, God did tell the Christians they own America. It’s in the bible somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001/60 "2012-08-13T12:31:35Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Don’t get me started. > > Too late. > > Are these the same people who leave their flags flying _ **all night without a light?** _ And until it’s a tattered mess? And then **throw it out?** Because, flag-burning is a sin, right? > > Damn it, I do not worship the American flag, but if you’re going to do something, do it right, and respect what a symbol stands for in the first place. You understand that the flag is no different from any other mass-produced piece of cloth, right? It’s not hurting anyone or anything if the flag gets frayed around the edges, or left out overnight. What’s going to happen - the America-ness is going to leak out of a hole in the flag? The vengeful gods of mindless jingoism will forever haunt a garbage can in which a flag is disposed of? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-say-amen-after-the-pledge-of-allegiance/631001.md?page=2)