# Should we target ammo sales instead of gun sales for a solution to mass shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895 "2018-02-15T20:37:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/21 "2018-02-15T23:28:05Z")
> [@nate](#): > > My point is that reliable ammo lasts around a decade (or so I’ve read) … I don’t know where you read that, but it was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/22 "2018-02-15T23:30:02Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Nah. > > The route to gun control has been shown to us by republicans trying to end abortions. Death by a thousand cuts. > > So, mandate things like: > > - Gun stores must store all weapons not on display in a Class 5-B vault. When the store is closed all weapons on display must be moved into the vault and the vault locked. The lock on the vault must have a 15 minute delay timer. > > - Mandatory two day waiting period to buy a gun. > > - Anyone buying a gun needs to speak with a counselor about other options like knives and bats and Kung-Fu lessons. > > - Anyone buying a gun must be shown pictures of innocent gunshot victims and at least 50% of which need to be children who were shot. > > - All hallways/doorways in the gun store must conform to standards set for Emergency Rooms. > > Why? Because “reasons”. Similar laws applying to abortion clinics worked because apparently the state doesn’t have to show there is a good reason for it. Just that they can mumble a reason for it…again does not have to be a good one. Keep laying it on till they are gone. Does the phrase “strict scrutiny” mean anything to you? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/23 "2018-02-15T23:34:29Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > b. The second is a common myth. You read about mass stabbings? [Here’s one](https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Suspect-charged-in-Lone-Star-College-stabbing-4420907.php). > > This guy stabbed 14 people. Oh, right, they all lived. Turns out it’s a lot harder to kill someone with a muscle powered knife than it is to fire a weapon that required just a few ounces of trigger pressure and has been specifically designed for combat. - The Akihabara massacre (秋葉原通り魔事件 Akihabara Tōrima Jiken, literally “Akihabara random attacker incident”) was an incident of mass murder that took place on Sunday, 8 June 2008, in the Akihabara shopping quarter for electronics, video games, manga and anime in Sotokanda, Chiyoda, Tokyo, Japan. At 12:33 p.m., a man drove into a crowd with a truck, killing three people and injuring two; he then stabbed at least 12 people using a dagger (initially reported as a survival knife[1]), killing four people and injuring eight. On April 15, 2014, Matthew de Grood, son of Calgary Police Inspector Doug de Grood, stabbed five young adults to death at a house party in the Brentwood neighbourhood of Calgary, Alberta, Canada\* there’s more. It happens. Yes, shootings are more deadly. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/24 "2018-02-15T23:39:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know where you read that, but it was wrong. If you Google it what you get is that the manufacturers say that their ammo stored properly will be good for at LEAST 10 years…which probably means a lot longer with some percentage of failures increasing over time. But they can’t really say that, so they just say 10 years is what they will go on record as supporting (with the caveat of storing it properly). ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/25 "2018-02-15T23:45:12Z")
As nice as it would be to stop crazed gun owners (the best kind!) from killing people, banning bullets is the wrong approach to take for the reasons cited. Better to go after the guns directly, if you somehow amassed enough political clout to do anything about it at all. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/26 "2018-02-15T23:48:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Umm, no. We have fired WW1 period ammo, worked fairly well. Properly stored WW2 ammon, that is now 70 years old? No problem. Reloading? Pretty damn easy. > > and outright banning would certainly cause a Second Ad issue. I’ll be honest and say I have no idea how long properly stored ammo will perform as though it was brand new, but I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t count on WWI or WWII-era ammo being _reliable_. I’ve shot enough semi-autos to know that they are more prone to jam when using older ammo. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/27 "2018-02-15T23:48:58Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > b. The second is a common myth. You read about mass stabbings? Here’s one. Wait…are you saying mass stabbings are a myth, or that it’s a myth that people die…or it’s a myth that they can be as deadly as mass shootings…or that they are less frequent? I’m not sure what part is a myth, to be honest. If it’s that mass stabbings don’t kill people, well just a quick Google search shows [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack) one killed 31 and injured 143 more. And there are plenty of other examples of mass stabbings being deadly. If it’s a myth that they happen with similar frequency, well…I don’t know that one. I know it’s an issue in China, but it’s hard to say how big an issue it is or has been since they don’t exactly have the same press access or openness of most other countries. ETA: Actually, I think it’s probably not as frequent (i.e. mass stabbings) as mass shootings in the US. But I really don’t know the answer to that one and seems like it would be apples to oranges anyway, even comparing China to the US wrt mass killings. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/28 "2018-02-15T23:50:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > As nice as it would be to stop crazed gun owners (the best kind!) from killing people, banning bullets is the wrong approach to take for the reasons cited. Better to go after the guns directly, if you somehow amassed enough political clout to do anything about it at all. My point being, unless you are wiling to go and confiscate firearms, there are 300+ million existing and they will continue to exist even if you completely ban gun sales. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/29 "2018-02-15T23:55:27Z")
> [@nate](#): > > My point being, unless you are wiling to go and confiscate firearms, there are 300+ million existing and they will continue to exist even if you completely ban gun sales. I don’t think either approach is going to be really effective, to be honest. As I’ve said in the myriad other threads on this topic, what you really have to do is change the mindset of Americans wrt guns, and essentially make them not want to have guns in the first place. It’s actually worked…the number of families with guns has actually dropped. What has gone up in many cases is the number of guns a single owner might possess in a collection. And I think this has a lot to do with people trying to legislatively take the guns away (as well as just the general affluence of our society that allows even folks of modest means to acquire large collections). Trying to take those guns away (or the bullets) is, IMHO, likely to have the exact opposite effect to the one the people proposing them actually want. It’s like the taking candy from a baby episode on Mythbusters…the harder you try and take it away, the harder the baby clings and the more fuss they put up while you try and take it. Leave the baby be and, in many cases, the baby will lose interest and just throw the candy away. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/30 "2018-02-15T23:59:21Z")
> [@nate](#): > > My point being, unless you are wiling to go and confiscate firearms, there are 300+ million existing and they will continue to exist even if you completely ban gun sales. And maybe 50 BILLION rounds of ammunition (to toss out a bit of a WAG). Here, [read this article](http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/13/news/companies/ammo-imports/) from December 2016. > [@](#): > > Some 2,865 tons of bullets were imported last month, totaling 17,850 tons over the last 12 months, according to Panjiva. This is all coming from civilian buyers, not the military. Obviously the number of rounds contained in a single ton will depend largely on the caliber, but 17,850 tons in a year amounts to roughly an epic shitload of ammunition. And that’s just the _imported_ stuff, not counting domestically-manufactured or home-made ammunition. Banning ammo sales now is the ultimate “close barn door after horse is gone” move. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/31 "2018-02-16T00:02:22Z")
> [@nate](#): > > My point being, unless you are wiling to go and confiscate firearms, there are 300+ million existing and they will continue to exist even if you completely ban gun sales. Sure, and you’d have to be _way_ dedicated to disarming the country to attempt to send out squads of people with flak jackets labeled “Gun-Grabber” to pry the weapons from the gun-grippers’ cold dead hands. But the point has been made that banning bullets wouldn’t do you much better, because there are too many in the wild, they’re too easy to make, and absolutely none of the raw materials used in making them can ever possibly by tracked by any method because it’s not like any of them are explosive or anything. Suffice to say, all the gun-grippers who would freak out and start murdering people if you came for their guns would _also_ freak out and start murdering people if you inhibited the purchase of ammo. So if you’re going to try any of these schemes you might as well try them all at once - there’ll be the same amount of freaked-out murder either way. (Note: I’m aware that most gun owners wouldn’t become murderers if guns or ammo became unavailable. It’s the _other ones_ that are the problem.) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/32 "2018-02-16T00:02:34Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Trying to take those guns away (or the bullets) is, IMHO, likely to have the exact opposite effect to the one the people proposing them actually want. Correct. If you want to see ammo sales surge to record-setting new levels, have someone in Congress write up a bill to ban ammo sales, and then hold a press conference about it, or push it through a committee, or the House, or the Senate. Millions of people will go out and buy billions of rounds of ammo in response. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/33 "2018-02-16T00:31:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Correct. If you want to see ammo sales surge to record-setting new levels, have someone in Congress write up a bill to ban ammo sales, and then hold a press conference about it, or push it through a committee, or the House, or the Senate. Millions of people will go outto and buy billions of rounds of ammo in response. It doesn’t even take that, after Obama was elected there was a shortage of ammo. I remember a couple of co-workers who would get the inside scoop when a local sporting goods store was to get an ammo shipment in and they’d go and stand in line waiting for the doors to open like it was an iphone launch day. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/34 "2018-02-16T01:01:40Z")
> [@nate](#): > > It doesn’t even take that, after Obama was elected there was a shortage of ammo. I remember a couple of co-workers who would get the inside scoop when a local sporting goods store was to get an ammo shipment in and they’d go and stand in line waiting for the doors to open like it was an iphone launch day. You’re right. I suspect even posts like yours, from poorly-informed Democrats, drive some non-zero number of ammo purchases each year. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/35 "2018-02-16T01:10:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > - > > The Akihabara massacre (秋葉原通り魔事件 Akihabara Tōrima Jiken, literally “Akihabara random attacker incident”) was an incident of mass murder that took place on Sunday, 8 June 2008, in the Akihabara shopping quarter for electronics, video games, manga and anime in Sotokanda, Chiyoda, Tokyo, Japan. > > At 12:33 p.m., a man drove into a crowd with a truck, killing three people and injuring two; he then stabbed at least 12 people using a dagger (initially reported as a survival knife[1]), killing four people and injuring eight. > > On April 15, 2014, Matthew de Grood, son of Calgary Police Inspector Doug de Grood, stabbed five young adults to death at a house party in the Brentwood neighbourhood of Calgary, Alberta, Canada\* > > there’s more. It happens. Yes, shootings are more deadly. So he only killed 7 people and 3 were with a truck? Yeah that’s my point. Quality of weaponry matters, they aren’t all equal. Yeah, if we banned guns and somehow confiscated most of them, individual single person murders would still happen, but not nearly as often and mass killings would be much rarer and smaller. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/36 "2018-02-16T01:12:53Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Wait…are you saying mass stabbings are a myth, or that it’s a myth that people die…or it’s a myth that they can be as deadly as mass shootings…or that they are less frequent? It’s a myth that all weapons are equally effective for the purposes of mass murder. That it would be pointless to remove guns if you could, because then a high school dropout would be equally able to make a massive bomb capable of killing just as many people in the blast. A big enough bomb might be harder to get the materials for than you think, he’d need a vehicle, a way to get it close enough, a detonator that actually worked and didn’t short itself out because he failed science class…just not as straightforward as “put the mag in, release the bolt”. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/37 "2018-02-16T01:18:55Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > So he only killed 7 people and 3 were with a truck? Yeah that’s my point. Quality of weaponry matters, they aren’t all equal. Yeah, if we banned guns and somehow confiscated most of them, individual single person murders would still happen, but not nearly as often and mass killings would be much rarer and smaller. Yeah…it would (perhaps) cut murders in half. Roughly. Maybe. It would cut suicides in half as well…maybe. In 2015 there were about 11,000 gun related murders compared to the nearly 5,000 non-gun related murders in the US…substantially more on both counts than every other modern western nation. Suicides are 19k verse 21k. I often think that people lose site of the real numbers wrt this issue. 535 deaths wrt ‘mass shootings’, while horrible, is about the same number of people who choke on tooth picks in the US each year. Out of millions of gun owners and hundreds of millions of guns. 11k murders is a hell of a lot…but so is 5k, and I remain unconvinced that if someone magically took away the hundreds of millions of guns in the US we wouldn’t have, oh, say 8,000 murders anyway…just without guns. I also think that Americans, with their can do spirit would figure out how to bump those 19k suicides using non-gun methods up to something along the lines of 30-40k, even without guns. Americans and America is just a more violent mix of populations than Europe, or Japan, or Australia or Canada. Why? I have my theories, but the facts are pretty much there. It isn’t guns that make us violent…guns are just the tool we use more often than others. But even without them we find a way. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/38 "2018-02-16T01:20:39Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > It’s a myth that all weapons are equally effective for the purposes of mass murder. That it would be pointless to remove guns if you could, because then a high school dropout would be equally able to make a massive bomb capable of killing just as many people in the blast. Oh…that sounds more like a strawman. Or maybe an aphorism? The really dangerous weapons is the human, not the gun/knife/jello, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/39 "2018-02-16T01:23:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Does the phrase “strict scrutiny” mean anything to you? Yeah. Has the SCOTUS ruled that strict scrutiny applies in gun cases? ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895/40 "2018-02-16T01:46:37Z")
In the late 90’s I shot some .45 ACP ammo from WWII and it worked fine. The idea of stopping crime by restricting ammo is completely backwards. It only takes one round, or a handful of them to commit murder. The biggest mass shootings, which are a tiny fraction of gun crime, only involve hundreds of rounds. Recreational target shooters go through thousands to tens of thousands of rounds a year. So limiting ammo quantity would do nothing to stop crime, but it would outlaw recreational shooting. The only way to stop crime by limiting ammo quantity is to make the limit zero, in which case you may as well ban the guns. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-target-ammo-sales-instead-of-gun-sales-for-a-solution-to-mass-shootings/808895.md?page=3)