# Should We Treat Communists the Same as Nazis? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927 "2004-01-25T01:27:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/1 "2004-01-25T01:27:32Z")
I was going to post this thread earlier but it was not possible to link the [article on which it is based](http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2003/12/rauch.htm) for free until a few days ago. In any case, Jonathan Rauch’s article states that the outrage we expend against Nazis and Nazism in general is not matched against communists and communism even though their body counts are far higher. To support his argument, Rauch uses the seemingly breezy dismissal by those on the left of the involvement of International ANSWER–a small quasi-Marxist group–in a series of antiwar marches last year and wonders why–given Marxism’s violent past–the same denunciation by liberals had the marches been sponsered by neo-Nazis or the KKK. That brings us to the topic of this thread, should a Marxist today be regarded with the same degree of contempt that a neo-Nazi would? Discuss amongst yourselves. I’ll post with my opinion later. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/2 "2004-01-25T01:34:00Z")
Marxism as a philosphical/critical tool has its uses. As an actual political program it has none. Bottom line is we never got in a shooting war with the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/3 "2004-01-25T01:49:44Z")
IMO, Marxism as an analytical tool only works for places whose economy is based on the exploitation of a single resource or production of a single product, even if it’s a value-added product. Reason being that in such a place you have a very small group of people who own the resource/means of production, and a very large group of people who work for these people directly or indirectly. Beyond such simple, usually resource-based economies, it falls flat on its face. As for whether Marxists should be treated with the same contempt, simple answer is yes. Since Cambodia, which practically redefined brutality in a non-Nazi context, my patience for Marxist apologists is somewhere between zero and a negative number. If ever an ideology has proven itself bankrupt, this one is it, bigtime. As with Nazism, I can’t figure out why anyone gives this ideology the time of day anymore. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/4 "2004-01-25T15:01:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Since Cambodia, which practically redefined brutality in a non-Nazi context, my patience for Marxist apologists is somewhere between zero and a negative number. This statement actually points out how the discussion is mixing terms to create an non-equal comparison. It is not legitimate to make a direct comparison between the Nazis and the Marxists as political or social strategies. If you wish to compare movements, the legitimate comparison is between Marxism and Fascism. (I would not hold up either movement as a shining example of humanity and will not defend their goals or their methods.) Cambodia is no more a natural and obvious result of Marxism than the Nazis were _necessarily_ a natural outcome of Fascism. Each took ideas that were peripheral to the core beliefs and expanded them in ways that rationlized their killings. Nothing in _Das Kapital_ provides for the elimination of anyone who is educated. Nothing in the speeches of Mussolini provides for the destruction of other peoples. The Marxists tended to have a higher death toll than the Fascists because they tended to get hold of larger countries with more people. And, it should be noted, the great periods of murder under both the Fascists and the Marxists were generally carried out at particular times under particular leaders. The U.S.S.R. continued for forty years after Stalin without continuing his policies of genocide (which even he had cut back, over fifteen years earlier, once his political goals had been reached). Once Franco and Salazar achieved power, (in typically bloody ways), they did not carry on continued policies of murder. Similarly, once Tito and Castro had bloodily secured their control of their countries, they did not carry out repeated or continuous campaigns of terror or murder against their citizens. In both cases, the might of the government was enough to keep the citizenry in line without continuous blood baths. The Nazis get the reputation for most evil because, unlike any of the other groups, they set out to murder people for the sheer sake of committing mayhem. The peoples who were systematically murdered by the Nazis were not a threat to their political goals and could have been incorporated into a Fascist system had they not been targeted for death. Jews, Rom, homosexuals, and the mentally incompetent all continued to live in Italy, Spain, and Portugal under the Fascist systems without threatening those systems in any way. While the death tolls are much higher, the massacres committed in the U.S.S.R., China, and Cambodia were carried out to eliminate political opposition. This hardly justifies the atrocities, but it changes the motives under which people (and regimes) are generally judged. (Of course, it is always more dangerous to be a citizen of a totalitarian regime, while it is generally safer to be a citizen of a more “free” nation, in which case there is more danger in being the citizen of a land on which a “free” country has designs.) ---
**Author:** ![nicky2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/edb3f5/32.png) [@nicky2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky2)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/5 "2004-01-25T16:16:05Z")
No. Communism is a broad church of different beliefs: Nazism was a specific regime. ---
**Author:** ![nicky2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/edb3f5/32.png) [@nicky2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky2)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/6 "2004-01-25T16:19:44Z")
Put it another way: judge, say Fidel Castro, for his bad deeds in Cuba. Dont cloud the issue by trying to pin the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge on him as well. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/7 "2004-01-25T16:49:47Z")
Were Hitler and Mussolini just bad examples? “They weren’t _real_ fascists…” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/8 "2004-01-25T17:50:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It is not legitimate to make a direct comparison between the Nazis and the Marxists as political or social strategies. If you wish to compare movements, the legitimate comparison is between Marxism and Fascism. I agree. I wonder if **NDP** would agree to a rewording of the OP along those lines. > [@](#): > > I would not hold up either movement as a shining example of humanity and will not defend their goals or their methods. I agree again. Although I’d phrase it less indirectly, by saying that both “movements” are antithetical to the concept of freedom. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/9 "2004-01-25T17:59:49Z")
Stupid yet relevant Eddie Izzard interjection: > [@](#): > > There were other mass murderers that got away with it! Stalin, killed many millions, died in his bed, well done there. Pol Pot killed 1.7 million Cambodians, died under house arrest, age 72. Well done indeed. > > And the reason we let it – them get away with it is because they killed their own people. And we’re sort of fine with that. _Ah, help yourself, you know. We’ve been trying to kill you for ages!_ So kill your own people, ohh, right on there, seems to be. > > Hitler killed people next door – _awwww…stupid man. After a couple of years, we won’t stand for that, will we?_ ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/10 "2004-01-25T22:19:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Once Franco and Salazar achieved power, (in typically bloody ways), they did not carry on continued policies of murder. Similarly, once Tito and Castro had bloodily secured their control of their countries, they did not carry out repeated or continuous campaigns of terror or murder against their citizens. Some nitpicks: The number of those executed by Franco post 1939 range from 22,641 (Ramon Salas Larraza) to 100,000 (Hugh Thompson) to a far less likely 192,684 (Spanish official cited by Daniel Davies). Furthermore, for Tito…after he came to power, Rummel asserts 500,000 killed, Mark Mazower says 60,000 killed, the _NY Times_ cited up to 100,000 dead, and Noel Malcom puts the dead at 250,000. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/11 "2004-01-25T22:31:19Z")
Well, y’know, a lot of what happened, historically, was situational. First of all, Pol Pot killed his own people who were not white, did not speak English, and lived in a place a lot of Americans never heard of. Furthermore, it would have been expensive and politically inconvenient for us to go do anything about him. Stalin did kill white people, but they did not speak English, and it would have been suicidal to go and try to do anything about HIM until it was much too late. Hitler, on the other hand, killed damn near anything he could reach, regardless of what color they were or what language they spoke, and he did so in a lot of cute little European countries that we’ve not only heard of, but enjoy taking vacations and holidays in, and who make neat food and Cuckoo clocks and suchlike, and we WERE in a position to do something about him, since we were at war with his ally, Japan, anyway. Plus, we had a lot of help. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/12 "2004-01-26T02:55:58Z")
**tomndebb** , the below: > [@](#): > > The bourgeoisie has subjected the country to the rule of the towns. It has created enormous cities, has greatly increased the urban population as compared with the rural, and has thus rescued a considerable part of the population from the idiocy of rural life…in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable: > … > 8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, **especially for agriculture.** > 9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; **gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.** Points 8 and 9 are precisely what the Khmer Rouge did. They did so because it was an essential part of the communist ideology. The only difference would be that instead of a gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, they went for a radical redistribution of the population. But the armies of agricultural laborers they put under their rule were in line with the rules they were following. All we saw in Cambodia was the application of the Marxist vision of communism, nothing more and nothing less. The results are plain to see. QED. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/13 "2004-01-26T03:58:52Z")
Quibble, quibble, ground meat reds or jewish kibble. One two, three, four, five…one million…two million… Human beings killer by Nazis\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ 5,000,000 Human beings killed by communists\_\_\_\_\_50,000,000 Hey look, everybody, no one is counting. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/14 "2004-01-26T04:03:53Z")
Where did you get that 5 million figure for the nazis, **Milum**? That doesn’t even account for all the Jews in the death camps. Let me guess…you think the holocaust numbers are “exaggerated.” ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/15 "2004-01-26T04:06:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Where did you get that 5 million figure for the nazis, **Milum**? That doesn’t even account for all the Jews in the death camps. Let me guess…you think the holocaust numbers are “exaggerated.” He could’ve recalled the number in error, to be fair. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/16 "2004-01-26T04:29:56Z")
I can’t believe it was an “error”. 5M for WWII is ridiculously low. Personally, I find these numbers to be so mind-numbingly large as to make it an almost meaningless comarison. But if you really want to make it a numbers game, better look at number killed per year. China and the USSR had pretty much all the time they needed to accomplish their killing. There’s no telling how high the figure would’ve been for the Nazis had they had more time… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/17 "2004-01-26T05:46:53Z")
> [@](#): > > All we saw in Cambodia was the application of the Marxist vision of communism, nothing more and nothing less. The results are plain to see. QED. Nonsense. The “equable distribution of the populace” does not require, or even suggest, the murder of every human with an education. The results _are_ plain to see–and they indicate that the Khmer Rouge were loonies who were following their own twisted path, rather than carrying out the natural dictates of Marxism. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/18 "2004-01-26T06:04:51Z")
[One man’s views on the monsters of the 20th century.](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm) He also provides a [Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Man-made Megadeaths of the Twentieth Century](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstats.htm) in which he addresses the fallacies of the raw numbers game while also pointing out the difficulties of the “moral” game and the “my atrocity is bigger than your atrocity” game (as well as addressing the very technical–but necessary–point regarding how the numbers are collected and collated). * * * 5 million? Alabama education on display. ---
**Author:** ![Dinaroozie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Dinaroozie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinaroozie)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/19 "2004-01-26T06:10:43Z")
I confess that I don’t really know the details of the history involved here, so if I’ve got my facts wrong feel free to ignore this. That said, it seems to me that just because something is done in the name of a certain school of thought, it doesn’t make that school of thought or those that follow it responsible. I don’t blame Christians for the crusades, for example, because I don’t think that being Christian automatically means you approve of such things. I think that if you asked a member of the Socialist Alternative (local uni group) if they approved of the slaughter of fifty-million people, they’d say ‘no’. However, if you asked a local Neo-Nazi (no local groups come to mind) if he approved of the murder of six-million Jews… actually, I don’t know what he’d say, but I think at the very least it would be somewhat less negative than the response from the hypothetical Marxist mentioned above. So no, I think the idea that Communists should be treated like Nazis is kind of silly to say the least. ~ Isaac ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927/20 "2004-01-26T06:20:28Z")
> [@pantom](#): > > **tomndebb** , the below: > All we saw in Cambodia was the application of the Marxist vision of communism, nothing more and nothing less. The results are plain to see. QED. It is not possible to apply Marx’s version of communism to Cambodia, for neither he nor Engels saw it was possible to lead a communist revolution in such a backward country. Marx envisioned communist revolutions to take place in highly industrialised countries. In fact Lenin thought the revolution in Russia could not have stood alone without one in Germany. If you are looking for a version of communism that would work for an agrarian country, that’s Maoism. But Mao had never avocated mass murders. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-treat-communists-the-same-as-nazis/225927.md?page=2)