# Should We (USA) Attack Syria? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200 "2004-12-16T20:20:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/21 "2004-12-16T23:08:22Z")
> [@](#): > > They’re aiding our enemy. You’re aiding theirs. Who started it? ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/22 "2004-12-16T23:13:26Z")
Are the Attack Syria drumbeats getting louder all of a sudden? Kristol, Ledeen, and various cohorts have been out there spouting this the last few weeks. Here’s why it’s a [bad idea](http://www.tharwaproject.com/English/Main-Sec/Features/Feat_06_13_04/landis1.htm): > [@](#): > > The United States would be unwise to squeeze Syria to the breaking point. Regime change will present the U.S. with a number of immediate dangers and few clear advantages. > > **The likelihood of Syria producing a fully democratic regime in the next ten to fifteen years is remote; it enjoys none of the recognized prerequisites for sustaining democracy:** its elites are not committed to democracy, its population is not homogeneous, its national institutions are extremely weak and its per capita GDP is closer to $1,500 than the $5,500 commonly viewed as the democratic tipping point. > > Moreover, **the strategy of promoting external opposition groups, such as Farid Ghadry’s Reform Party, is unlikely to succeed.** Similar efforts to support exile groups to bring change to Cuba and Iraq have met with an unbroken record of failure. > > Should the Sunni majority reassert itself, it will not be the small class of liberals or old bourgeois families that take control. **Experts agree that the likely alternative to the current regime is an Islamic state run by the Muslim Brotherhood.** **MEMRI Reports return of Muslim Brotherhood to Syria (08/2004):** [http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/002957.php](http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/002957.php) Farid Ghadry is the Syrian Ahmed Chalabi. [Here](http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=2f8q2HvkjUphXgRnLYARqR%3D%3D): > [@](#): > > The similarities between Ghadry and Chalabi, co-founder of the Iraqi National Congress, seem striking… > > Ghadry also supports peace with Israel. “Why do we have to be enemies with our neighbor?” he asks, admitting that he has been impressed by Israel’s democracy and vibrant civil society on business visits to the country. Ghadry, astonishingly enough, is even a member of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. More [here](http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=3672): > [@](#): > > Ghadry spoke at an all-day symposium co-sponsored by the Committee on the Present Danger (CPD), a predominantly neoconservative lobby group set up in August… > > …On hand was Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, whose participation appeared not only to provide an official sanction of the radical agenda, but also to confirm that the neocon faction within the Bush administration is alive, kicking and unashamed despite the quagmire in Iraq. Hmm, I wonder if the intelligence sources coming from Ghadry are any more credible than Chalabi’s turned out to be… Do you feel _lucky_? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/23 "2004-12-16T23:20:56Z")
Firstly, an “amen” to **Loop** and pile on of a few more reasons why this is a brain-dead dumbfuk of an idea. Are there people in Syria helping the our enemies. Of course. There are people in Turkey doing the same, certainly people in Iran, people in Jordan, people in Pakistan… We are not beloved. There is a broadly reflected sentiment that America is at war with Islam _itself_. This is ridiculous, of course, but that doesn’t matter when it’s widely believed. The very best way to make this broad sentiment universal would be to attack another Muslim nation. If we demand that Syria stop aiding our enemies, how would we define that? That the Syrian government crack down on its own people, at our behest? Whatever would make you think that they would? Why should they? They are not our friends, they do not support our policies. Other than the threat of brute force, what are we offering? If the powers that be in Syria knuckled under to a threat of force (an implausible threat at best, as outlined above), they might very well be facing an insurrection of thier own. For us? Why? They might clear their throat and make a few gestures, round up some Usual Suspects, maybe even execute a few of thier own political enemies and claim they were “insurgents”, but by no stretch of the imagination can we dream that they will effectively crack down on support, even if they wanted to. Which they don’t. Our options range from the bad to the unspeakable, on the unspeakable end is expanding this further. The only glimmer of hope is the possibility of progress on the Israel/Palestine front, and that may only let Israel off the hook and leave us alone as the Great Satan. This is a bad idea. “Bad” in the same sense that leprosy is “unpleasant”, and the Death By Ten Thousand Cuts is “uncomfortable”. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/24 "2004-12-16T23:24:44Z")
So, invasionists, if the US invaded Syria and found _no_ insurgents, the invasion will **not** have been justified? (If you agree, please answer quote this post and answer ‘yes’ below it so as to provide an expilict permanent record). ---
**Author:** ![ninetypercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9de0a6/32.png) [@ninetypercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ninetypercent)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/25 "2004-12-16T23:26:01Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > You’re aiding theirs. Who started it? How so? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/26 "2004-12-16T23:30:55Z")
[So](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2513159.stm) ---
**Author:** ![ninetypercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9de0a6/32.png) [@ninetypercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ninetypercent)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/27 "2004-12-16T23:30:58Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > So’s Rumsfeld, and he’s closer to home. So… he’s a traitor. Are you comfortable with that accusation? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/28 "2004-12-16T23:45:42Z")
> [@ninetypercent](#): > > So… he’s a traitor. Are you comfortable with that accusation? Let’s asked the dead fungibles in Iraq whether they were properly equipped shall we? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/29 "2004-12-16T23:51:34Z")
Even if they were properly equipped, they weren’t properly deployed. GeeDubya isn’t a traitor, GeeDubya is a fool. It is a fine distinction, perhaps, doesn’t mean shit to a tree, even less to a corpse. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/30 "2004-12-17T00:07:16Z")
I think, in order to shore up his fundamentalist base, Bush wants to conquer Syria in order to get the +1 piety bonus. ---
**Author:** ![ninetypercent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9de0a6/32.png) [@ninetypercent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ninetypercent)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/31 "2004-12-17T00:32:43Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Let’s asked the dead fungibles in Iraq whether they were properly equipped shall we? That does not alter your implication. > [@elucidator](#): > > Even if they were properly equipped, they weren’t properly deployed. GeeDubya isn’t a traitor, GeeDubya is a fool. It is a fine distinction, perhaps, doesn’t mean shit to a tree, even less to a corpse. So what? “GeeDubya” does not matter, same as Rumsfeld. This is **WAR** and that is that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/32 "2004-12-17T00:42:14Z")
> [@ninetypercent](#): > > This is **WAR** and that is that. ‘… And after all, there _was_ a war on. But isn’t there always?’ – Harlan Ellison, _‘Repent, Harlequin!’ Said the Ticktockman_ ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/33 "2004-12-17T00:48:19Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > No, a lot of countries aren’t helping us as much as we’d like. Syria is allowing Iraqi insurgents to base and supply on their territory. They’re not just not helping us, they’re helping the enemy. And Lord knows helping a country thats not America is perfect justification for having your government overthrown and your country invaded and occupied! I have no doubts that our current plan is to just plain take over the middle east so that it isn’t a problem anymore. Our US-supported regime in Saudi Arabia seems to be working out pretty well, but installing favorable leaders through coups and the like is a pretty long process and (as shown in Afghanistan and Iraq) often works against us in the end. The new plan is just to roll in with tanks and call the place ours. I don’t think Syria is next through. Iran is. We’ve got them surrounded in Afghanistan and Iraq. I’m pretty sure we thought we could just set up shop in Iraq and use it as a base to “institute a regime change” in Iran. After such an easy time in Afghanistan, we wern’t counting on Iraq being such a pain in the ass. After we control Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, we will have a pretty tight grip (and some great bases) in the area and can use that to get others to play along at the risk of being taken over. We won’t attack anyone else until we are sure we can keep Iraq, which could be a while. But as long as we have the current bunch of polticians, we will be in war. We will not stop until we control the region and they can no longer “act up” by controlling the oil supply and the like. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/34 "2004-12-17T00:55:35Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > No, a lot of countries aren’t helping us as much as we’d like. Syria is allowing Iraqi insurgents to base and supply on their territory. They’re not just not helping us, they’re helping the enemy. Where is your evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/35 "2004-12-17T01:18:26Z")
> [@ninetypercent](#): > > So what? “GeeDubya” does not matter, same as Rumsfeld. This is **WAR** and that is that. What is this supposed to mean? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/36 "2004-12-17T01:27:28Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > I don’t think Syria is next through. Iran is. But Iran’s nicely outmanuevered us on the nuclear proliferation issue, and all that pent up aggression has got to come out somewhere. Going after Syria’s got it’s problems too, especially now that the pentagon’s [fired John Shaw](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/12/12/copter_crash_lands_on_skyscraper_roof/), their main guy for beating the [Syria has Saddam’s WMD’s drum](http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041028-122637-6257r.htm). Also, with the AIPAC spy case [heating up](http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=56174&d=17&m=12&y=2004) > [@](#): > > Washington allegedly is so furious over the spying allegations that it has demanded the resignation of Amos Yaron, director general of Israel’s Defense Ministry, according several news sources. it’s unlikely that Israeli bullshit, such as linked to in the OP, will gain much traction in Washington. Things might have been different if more than 10 or 20 of the 1000 plus insurgents captured in Fallujah had been foreign nationals, but that’s the way the cookie crumbled. **ninetypercent** , who’s killed more American soldiers, Rummy or Syrian nationals? Can you even point to a Syrian national that’s been captured as a combatant in Iraq? If Syria is a major factor, we should have hundreds in captivity by now. Handwaving notwithstanding, the Iraqi uprising appears to be mostly an internal affair. (You steal from the best **luc**. That was pretty Slick) ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/37 "2004-12-17T01:29:28Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Where is your evidence? The CIA and Defense Department said so. When are they ever wrong? > [@SentientMeat](#): > > Why should Syria be invaded? Tell us all the justifications now. Well, um, you see, things aren’t going so well in Iraq. Sooooo…it would be a nice break from that whole thing for the American people. They could revel in another quick, successful military invasion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/38 "2004-12-17T01:37:31Z")
Just something I heard some old fart mutter when I was doing volunteer work at the Home for the Chronicly Groovy. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/39 "2004-12-17T02:11:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If we demand that Syria stop aiding our enemies, how would we define that? That the Syrian government crack down on its own people, at our behest? Whatever would make you think that they would? Why should they? They are not our friends, they do not support our policies. Other than the threat of brute force, what are we offering? They are not Syrians. They are refugees from Iraq and Syria already has agreed to help out, but on the contrary has actively provided for their support. That is just not from my link, but has been shown in numerous sources. \*\* Squink\*\* > [@](#): > > Things might have been different if more than 10 or 20 of the 1000 plus insurgents captured in Fallujah had been foreign nationals, but that’s the way the cookie crumbled. No, that’s the tip of the iceberg. But it’s not just foreign nationals. It’s that Syria is harboring fugitive Iraqis and providing them with support. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/40 "2004-12-17T02:33:52Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > \*\* Squink\*\* No, that’s the tip of the iceberg. With 18 foreigners in the 1100+ captured, I’d like some proof that there _is_ an iceberg. > [@](#): > > Syria is harboring fugitive Iraqis and providing them with support. Who, uncaptured leaders from the deck of 52, or tribal leaders? How much support; looking the other way, or a couple of armored divisions? With regard to the article’s claim: > [@](#): > > There have been several unpublicized battles between American and Syrian forces, when Syrian troops intervened to try and prevent the Americans from carrying out a hot pursuit of Iraqi insurgents at the border Was not the most highly publicized incident of this type triggered by Americans straying FIFTEEN MILES into Syrian territory? What are the Syrians expected to do under those circumstance, give all our boys in uniform blow jobs? There’s provocation going both ways across that border. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200.md?page=3)