# Should We (USA) Attack Syria? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200 "2004-12-16T20:20:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/41 "2004-12-17T02:34:07Z")
You can, of course, prove all this, yes? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/42 "2004-12-17T03:12:07Z")
[http://www.charleston.net/stories/120804/ter\_08iraq.shtml](http://www.charleston.net/stories/120804/ter_08iraq.shtml) You need to register, but here’s the applicable quote: > [@](#): > > In a speech to the Iraqi National Council, the deputy prime minister, Barham Saleh, said he was losing patience with Iraq’s neighbors. He didn’t single out any governments, but noted that Iraqi police had arrested a Syrian driving a car packed with artillery shells and other explosives. > > “There is evidence indicating that some groups in some neighboring countries are playing a direct role in the killing of the Iraqi people and such a thing is not acceptable to us,” Saleh said. I don’t know what the evidence is, but there have been similar reports. Whatever the evidence, Bush has warned Syria, but then again he had good evidence for WMD. The Americans were not “straying” 15 miles into Syrian territory, but were in hot pursuit. How many miles are you going to limit them? One? Two? If Syria would not be fostering these attacks, no entry in their territory to nab terrorists would be needed. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/43 "2004-12-17T03:25:18Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > If Syria would not be fostering these attacks, no entry in their territory to nab terrorists would be needed. Unfortunately, this sounds a little like “If you weren’t guilty, we wouldn’t arrest you.” ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/44 "2004-12-17T03:29:45Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > I don’t know what the evidence is, but there have been similar reports. Whatever the evidence, Bush has warned Syria, but then again he had good evidence for WMD. So there might be evidence, or not, but really who can tell? > [@barbitu8](#): > > The Americans were not “straying” 15 miles into Syrian territory, but were in hot pursuit. How many miles are you going to limit them? One? Two? If Syria would not be fostering these attacks, no entry in their territory to nab terrorists would be needed. Oh so it was a deliberate violation of Syria’s borders coupled with American’s firing on legitimate Syrian forces repelling a deliberate American incursion. Oh by all means, make sure Ms. Rice presents that at the UN. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/45 "2004-12-17T04:23:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You can, of course, prove all this, yes? [Few foreigners among rebels captured in Fallujah](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-11-15-fallujah-foreigners_x.htm) > [@](#): > > Col. Michael Regner, operations chief for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, said in a conference call with reporters at the Pentagon that 1,052 people had been detained at last count. > > Of that total, he said at least 1,030 were Iraqis, meaning only about 20 were foreigners. The bit about US raids into Syria is a tougher to track. Here’s a few sources on the June 18-19, 2003 incident. There’s lots of inconsistancies between the stories, but something fairly serious happened: [U.S. Syria raid killed 80](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4138.htm) (UPI) > [@](#): > > Depicted by the Pentagon as a mere border skirmish, the June 18 strike into Syria by U.S. military forces was, in fact, based on mistaken intelligence and penetrated more than 25 miles into that country, causing numerous Syrian casualties, several serving and former administration officials said. > Although diplomatic relations between the two sides have been frosty after the fall of Saddam Hussein’s regime in Iraq, the two nations have close intelligence ties, which have become strained as a result, these sources said. [Is Syria Harboring Saddam?](http://www.meib.org/articles/0306_s1.htm) (Middle East Intelligence Bulletin) > [@](#): > > late in the evening on June 18, American intelligence detected a large convoy of trucks and SUVs headed toward the border with Syria, in violation of curfew. US warplanes and helicopters were quickly sent to attack the convoy. The details of what happened next are murky, but this much is clear: several SUVs split off from the convoy and raced across the Syrian border. Commandos from Task Force 20, an American Special Operations force set up to hunt down senior members of the ousted Iraqi regime, were sent across the border in hot pursuit of the fugitives, apparently guided by intercepted communications between the convoy and someone in Syria. The American commandos clashed with Syrian troops, five of whom were captured and brought back to Iraq for questioning. > > American defense officials were outraged - [Syrian guards hurt in US strike](http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030624-syrians-strike01.htm) [Damascus Demands Return of Syrian Border Guards by US](http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/syria/2003/syria-030626-voa01.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/46 "2004-12-17T05:28:09Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > The Americans were not “straying” 15 miles into Syrian territory, but were in hot pursuit. How many miles are you going to limit them? One? Two? Zero. When armed forces cross a border, it’s an act of war. Calling it “hot pursuit” is just a transparent attempt at putting it in law enforcement terms. Syria has every right to fight foreign troops on its territory with whatever force it can bring to bear. The act of letting your troops violate a sovereign country’s territory comes with the risk of them being shot at. That can’t possibly be a surprise. If your administration hadn’t been even more incompetent at diplomacy than at planning an occupation, Syria might even have been cooperative in disarming an aggressive neighbour. Fat chance of that now, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/47 "2004-12-17T05:39:51Z")
The “hot pursuit” doctrine gets broken out when ever it provides a convenient rationalization for one country to disregard the sovereignly of another nation. It was, I think, the excuse / justification / rational for the US invasion of Mexico before WWI –Black Jack Pershing and a fair hunk of the regular army were simply in hot pursuit of Poncho Via and a bunch of banditos. That the Mexican Expeditionary Force clashed with the Mexican Army was of no international consequence, it was just a police operation, like Korea. Great nations act like gangsters when it serves their purpose. Small nations act like whores. A truism and a fundamental principle of international relations. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/48 "2004-12-17T05:49:12Z")
> [@Spiny Norman](#): > > Zero. When armed forces cross a border, it’s an act of war. True. But, in fairness, sheltering military, paramilitary, or guerilla forces in one’s country is pretty much an act of war as well. I have absolutely zero sympathy for the plight Bush’s foreign policy finds itself in, myself, but it’s not like Syria’s some innocent lamb in this whole affair. What’s well and truly fubared is that those idiots in the White House didn’t recognize that what we’re seeing right now was far and away the most likely result of their Mesopotamian Misadventure. It didn’t have to be this way. ---
**Author:** ![hildea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ebca7d/32.png) [@hildea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hildea)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/49 "2004-12-17T09:24:24Z")
If Syria aids insurgents in Iraq, surely _Iraq_ is the nation sinned against, not USA. USA is only in Iraq to help the (cough) independent, (coughcough) sovereign nation of Iraq to put down the rebellion against the soon-to-be mostly-lawful more-or-less-democratically elected government, right? So if any nation should consider invading Syria, it’s Iraq. They might, of course, ask their dear friend and ally USA to help them. It would be interesting, in a horrifying trainwreck sort of way, to see what would happen with the relationship between US and their current allies if US made another attack on a “because we say so” casus belli against a sovereign nation within the next few years. I wonder if NATO would survive the pressure. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/50 "2004-12-17T11:00:55Z")
Invasionists, let us cut the crap. An invasion of Syria would be nothing to do with Iraqi insurgents, nor destrucive weapons, nor aid for terrorists, nor any of a thousand other reasons which might make headlines on Fox News. It would simply be another atrociously-conceived Neoconservative experiment in **establishing Middle East democracy by force** (which utterly _ignores_ the reasons why democracy is not already there in the first place). If we agree that this would be the _real_ reason for invasion, we can have an honest debate. The smokescreen for the Iraq invasion was as noxious as any elusive nerve gas - now that it has won the election we can explore the _genuine_ reasons without the despicable Straussian obfuscation. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/51 "2004-12-17T13:42:32Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > But Iran’s nicely outmanuevered us on the nuclear proliferation issue I think we can work around it. How would the Cuban missile crisis go if it happened nowday? We find a launch site, determine that it’s the only one, and decide to go for a quick destroy-it-all sweep. Iran retaliates by attacking our troops on the Iraq border, and we start rolling in to Iran. At the point of nuclear missiles and offensive attacks, people wouldn’t be so opposed to starting a draft if it were needed. Trust me on this one. Syria comes after Iran. I betcha five bucks on it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/52 "2004-12-17T14:42:18Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Trust me on this one. Syria comes after Iran. I betcha five bucks on it. What’s the time frame? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/53 "2004-12-17T14:58:57Z")
Great. Again an other thread by someone who thinks the USA owns the Middle East. Citizens of a sovereign nation need to cross their border into other nations in order to excape the criminals who invaded and keep under occupation their own sovereign nation. You make these citizens “the enemy” of the invader of their own nation. Very logical reasoning, this. Only (and take care now, cold shower follows): The USA is the enemy of these people who have every right to kill every US’er they can find busy in occupying their nation. Get it? Thank you. And if you would mind thinking about it that you don’t talk about “land” only but you talk about people living on that land and likely to get murdered by your heros when they go on an other criminal invading tour. Thank you again. Whenever I read threads like this, I fee like getting a gun, going to Iraq and start shooting there at the criminals who invaded and keep it under occupation. Really. I do. That angry these type of lunatics on a message board, claiming the US owns the whole Middle East and can invade and kill at will, makes **me**. I have SO ENOUGH of this criminal minded hypocritical arrogance that I can’t find words to describe it. Think for a second about this and how mad, and I mean: really outrageous mad, many many people in my region of the world are and how much more enraged they will get if the US dares to invade yet an other nation starting the massacre there. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/54 "2004-12-17T15:18:07Z")
If the following editorial is true [(David Ignatius article on The Pentagon’s New Map)](http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/weblog/archives2/001289.html), then the militray brain trust may not have any great desire to push for an Iranian invasion. Whether or not the political brain trust orders it is the more important question. > [@](#): > > Barnett sees Iran as the potential bridge between Core and Gap in the Middle East. He will argue in an article in the next issue of Esquire that the United States should try to make Iran its local security partner in the region, accepting its hegemony over a future Shiite-led Iraq and the Persian Gulf. The alternative is a new Yalta-style fault line between East and West – one that could divide the West from emerging Core countries such as India and China. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/55 "2004-12-17T15:35:02Z")
A simple tactical question really. If there’s so much problem with ‘leakage’, _why didn’t the US sealed Iraq’s borders?_ Surely that would put an end to foreign insurgency immediately. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/56 "2004-12-17T16:51:22Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Also, with the AIPAC spy case [heating up](http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=56174&d=17&m=12&y=2004) it’s unlikely that Israeli bullshit, such as linked to in the OP, will gain much traction in Washington. On what basis do you say this? According to [**Farid Ghadry**](http://www.annaqed.com/english/politics/syrias_broken_promises_farid_ghadry.html) (the Syrian Ahmed Chalabi, and a member of AIPAC): > [@](#): > > The Syrian Ba’athists are cornered. George W. Bush is in the Oval Office. Their “friends” in the US State Department are on the way out. The CIA house cleaning act is driving some of the Soviet era spymasters who traditionally have supported dictatorships out of office. The National Security is on track to follow the lead of the President. And most importantly, the President is even more committed to replacing dictatorships with law and order that Syria’s reappearance on the radar screen is expected, this time, to attract the political will necessary to implement a new policy for Syria. Do you see anything there that can be disputed? Do you really expect the Franklin/AIPAC case to “heat up” to the point of gathering any steam? ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/57 "2004-12-17T20:50:10Z")
Let’s try to understand what’s what in advance for once. Speaking of “gathering steam”, this is more about [water](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/natres/water/2004/0113israel.htm) than anything else. You don’t think water is an important factor??? Okay, in case that doesn’t make the case: **Meet the Syrians** : _63 percent are Sunni Arabs or “Arabised” Sunnis._\* \*A lot of Sunni Syrians are the remnants of Turks and Mamluks who adopted the Arabic language. The Sunnis in Syria are divided between rural Bedouins and urban settlers. **11 percent are Alawis.** They are the current ruling faction in Syria. \*\*10 percent are Kurds. \*\* For the most part, they aspire to join their fellow Kurds in Iran, Turkey, and Iraq. **10 percent are Christians.** Syrian Christians belong to more than ten different churches. Of the Christian, between 3-4 percent are Armenians. **3 percent are Druzes. 1.5 percent are Ismailis. 1.5 percent are other minorities.** [The Muslim Brotherhood has returned to Syria](http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/002957.php). I invite the “invasionists” to tell us how usurping Assad will lead to “democracy” in Syria. Based on our experience in Iraq, just how will this happen for the best? Please tell me how the US would be better off without Bashar Assad? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/58 "2004-12-17T21:21:56Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > On what basis do you say this? > > Do you really expect the Franklin/AIPAC case to “heat up” to the point of gathering any steam? Simple. Franklin/AIPAC looked to me like it was dying down through november, then on Dec 1, the FBI serves new search warrants, and now there’s rumors (linked above) of significant tension developing at a high level between US and Israel over it. (The rumored demand may or may not be real, but its publication means that someone thinks there’s still much juice to be wrung out of this particular turnip.) You’re right to some extent in that the CIA housecleaning could help produce a more anti-Syria stance by the US, but the pentagon is cleaning house too, and, surprisingly, the FBI still looks to be on this like a dog on a bone. That’s nothing to worry about if you think that there’s nothing to be found, but _is_ that really the case here? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/59 "2004-12-17T21:29:02Z")
> [@](#): > > I have SO ENOUGH of this criminal minded hypocritical arrogance that I can’t find words to describe it. But the reasons you come out with are inadequate because they are in defence of regimes which are terrible. How about when Syria completely flattened a city in the 80’s because it harboured Islamic extremists who were threatening the regime for starters. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200/60 "2004-12-17T21:36:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Based on our experience in Iraq, just how will this happen for the best? Please tell me how the US would be better off without Bashar Assad? well they’d be out of Lebanon for a start. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-usa-attack-syria/280200.md?page=4)