The trouble is, many Muslims won’t have so much as that one pint. 
There seems to be a foolish idea around that Islam is just Christianity or Buddhism in funny clothes. This is a very dangerous idea, because they are bent on spreading their religion through violence.
For example, in December, we had the following score:
Date Country City Killed Injured Description
1/16/2008 Somalia Mogadishu 7 7 Jihadis kill seven Ethiopians in a bomb attack that leaves several others ‘on the ground screaming in pain.’
1/15/2008 Pakistan Sararogha 22 0 Two dozen local soldiers are killed when religious militants overrun and capture a fort. Seven are beheaded.
1/15/2008 Thailand Yala 0 44 Islamic bombers injure forty-four people in an attack on market stalls.
1/15/2008 Somalia Afar-Darjin 2 4 Jihadis kill two civilians with a roadside bomb, four others are injured, including a pregnant woman who loses a leg.
1/15/2008 Somalia Aymiska 2 0 Islamic gunmen shoot two civilians in the head.
1/15/2008 Philippines Mindanao 1 0 A priest resists a kidnapping attempt by suspected Abu Sayyaf terrorists and is shot to death in his chapel.
1/15/2008 Lebanon Beirut 3 21 A car bomb targeting the US embassy kills three passing civilians.
1/15/2008 Israel Ein Hashlosha 1 0 Hamas snipers kill a farm laborer working in a field.
1/14/2008 Iraq Buhriz 7 3 Sunni militants booby-trap a home, killing seven Iraqi police.
1/14/2008 Afghanistan Kabul 8 6 Religious extremists attack a hotel with suicide vests and machine-guns, managing to kill eight people in the lobby.
1/14/2008 Thailand Narathiwat 8 7 Islamists ambush and kill eight local soldiers in a vicious attack that leaves them beheaded, shot or blasted to death.
1/14/2008 Pakistan Karachi 11 52 Three children are among eleven killed in a bombing by Islamic militants outside a textile factory.
1/14/2008 Pakistan Mohmand 7 12 Seven local soldiers are killed when Taliban militants ambush a military convoy.
1/13/2008 Algeria Medea 3 0 Islamic fundamentalists machine-gun three kids to death as they are gathering chestnust.
1/13/2008 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamic gunmen shoot a man in the back of the head as he is watching television.
1/13/2008 Pakistan Mingora 1 0 A civilian who supports a peace initiative is kidnapped by Islamic radicals and murdered.
1/12/2008 Iraq Sulaimaniyah 1 0 Shia fundamentalists gun down a liquor store owner.
1/12/2008 Afghanistan Kandahar 8 0 Taliban militants gun down eight Afghan police officers.
1/12/2008 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A father is murdered by Muslim gunmen after dropping his daughter off at school.
1/12/2008 Somalia Baidoa 2 0 Two Red Crescent workers are killed by suspected members of an Islamic militia.
1/12/2008 Afghanistan Helmand 1 8 A suicide bomber tries to enter a house, but is stopped short. He still manages to kill one adult and injure two children.
1/12/2008 Iraq Dhuluiya 6 0 Three children are among six killed when al-Qaeda gunmen invade two homes.
1/11/2008 Somalia Baidoa 1 0 Islamic militants shoot an off-duty soldier to death in a markeplace.
1/11/2008 Iraq Baghdad 4 8 Jihadis bomb a bakery, killing four people.
1/10/2008 Thailand Yala 3 7 Three men are shot to death by Muslim terrorists in three separate attacks.
1/10/2008 Yemen Sa’ada 6 6 Six local soldiers are killed in an ambush by Shiite radicals.
1/10/2008 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A Buddhist villager is murdered by Muslim gunmen in an unprovked attack.
1/10/2008 Pakistan Lahore 24 80 A suicide bomber attacks a police post, killing two dozen police and civilians alike.
1/10/2008 Iraq Baghdad 5 13 A pair of Jihad bombings leave five Iraqis dead.
1/9/2008 Algeria Ait Yahia 4 2 Islamic fundamentalists kill four local soldiers in a landmine attack.
1/9/2008 Philippines Jolo 2 0 Two off-duty cops are shot to death by suspected Islamic extremists, while jogging along a road.
1/9/2008 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 34-year-old man riding his motorcycle is murderd by Islamist gunmen.
1/9/2008 Yemen Haidan 1 0 Shiite militants kill a tribal elder.
1/8/2008 Iraq Madaen 2 5 A Fedayeen suicide bomber takes out two Iraqi policemen.
1/8/2008 Somalia Dibiyada 4 7 Four civilians are killed during an ambush by Islamic militants.
1/7/2008 Iraq Khanaqeen 6 0 Radical Sunnis abduct, bind and then murder five men. A carpenter is gunned down in a separate attack.
1/7/2008 Afghanistan Spin Boldak 1 4 A suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills a local border guard.
1/7/2008 Afghanistan Helmand 4 4 Taliban militants kill four Afghans with a roadside bombing.
1/7/2008 Iraq Baghdad 18 63 Eighteen innocents are are killed in two separate bombings, one a Fedayeen attack
1/7/2008 Pakistan Chugmalai 1 3 Islamic militants attack a security post, killing a local soldier.
1/7/2008 Iraq Hawija 3 0 A married couple and their young son are shot to death by Islamic terrorists.
1/6/2008 Iraq Baghdad 11 17 A Fedayeen suicide bomber attacks an Iraqi celebration of national unity, killing eleven innocent people.
1/6/2008 Iraq Muqdadiya 4 0 Islamic radicals kidnap and behead four people, tossing their heads out on a highway.
1/6/2008 Iraq Baghdad 3 16 A Jihad car bombing kills three people and injrues sixteen others.
1/6/2008 Pakistan Peshawar 1 0 Fundamentalists bomb a video shop, killing a security guard.
1/6/2008 Pakistan Wana 9 8 Nine tribal leaders are killed in two separate shooting attacks by Uzbeki Islamic extremists.
1/5/2008 Iraq Muqdadiyah 6 3 Jihadis bomb a minibus, killing six civilians including women and children.
1/4/2008 Pakistan Kurram 3 0 Fighting between Sunni and Shia leaves three people dead.
1/4/2008 Thailand Yala 1 2 A 43-year-old villager is shot to death by Muslim militants.
1/3/2008 Afghanistan Nimroz 7 12 A Fedayeen suicide bomber detonates in the middle of road construction crew, killing seven workers and their guards.
1/3/2008 Iraq Khalis 6 3 Six Iraqi soldiers are killed inside a home by a bomb set by radical Sunnis.
1/3/2008 Iraq Basra 1 0 A woman is shot to death by fundamentalists for unIslamic activities.
1/3/2008 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamists gun down a 57-year-old civilian in the street.
1/3/2008 Thailand Pattani 1 3 A local soldier dies from inuries suffered in a roadside bombing by militant Muslims.
1/3/2008 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 44-year-old Buddhist rubber tapper is murdered by Muslim extremists.
1/3/2008 India Shopian 1 0 The Mujahideen abduct and execute a civilian.
1/3/2008 Iraq Baghdad 6 11 Six civilians are killed in two separate Jihad attacks.
1/3/2008 Pakistan Kurram 6 11 Six people are killed in violence between Sunni and Shia.
1/2/2008 Iraq Baqubah 10 28 A female suicide bomber sends ten Iraqis to Allah.
1/2/2008 Iraq Muqdadiyah 6 3 Sunni radicals gun down six civilians in a drive-by attack.
1/2/2008 Afghanistan Kandahar 2 0 Two border guards are murdered by Islamic extremists.
1/2/2008 Afghanistan Helmand 1 1 Taliban militants shoot a local soldier to death.
1/2/2008 Algeria Naciria 5 7 Islamic fundamentalists bomb a police station, killing at least five people, including a 10-year-old girl.
1/2/2008 Pakistan Kurram 11 13 Eleven people are killed in a sectarian clash between Sunni and Shia.
1/2/2008 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 Suspected Islamists storm an aid office, killing a local guard.
1/2/2008 Iraq Baghdad 6 0 Freedom Fighters shoot five children and their father to death in a minivan at point-blank range.
1/2/2008 Somalia Afgoye 3 24 Islamists bomb a local market, killing three civilians.
1/1/2008 Pakistan Kahna 2 0 A young couple in their 20’s is gunned down by family members for having sex.
1/1/2008 Pakistan Kurram 2 5 Two people are killed in fighting between rival Muslim groups.
1/1/2008 India Rampur 7 3 Lashkar-e-Toiba terrorists carry out an attack on a security base, killing at least seven people.
1/1/2008 Sudan Khartoum 2 0 A US diplomat and his driver are killed in a shooting claimed by Islamic militants.
1/1/2008 Iraq Baghdad 36 38 A Fedayeen suicide bomber wades into a funeral and detonates, killing thirty-six people.
1/1/2008 Iraq Jalawla 5 0 Freedom Fighters abduct and murder an Iraqi policeman and four members of his family.
361 killed, 574 injured, and we’re only half way through the month.
Nor, as you might imagine, is it just fringe elements doing this. The King of Saudi Arabia recently had to step in and issue a pardon to prevent a teenage girl from being given 200 lashes !!! and being put in jail for six months. This is not a sentence which was imposed upon the girl by a “fringe element”, it was the legal sentence done by the legal authorities of a major country. And were it not for people who were willing to “antagonize” the Islamic world, people who refused to say “Oh, we have to be sensitive to their culture”, people who were willing to stand up and protest the injustice of their “justice” system, the sentence would have been carried out.
The girl’s crime?
She was gang-raped.
Anyone who gives an inch to the Muslim world is an utter fool.
Should we go out of our way to antagonize them? Of course not. But should we go out of our way not to antagonize them? Again, of course not.
Part of my passion about this is that I am a cartoonist … and part of it is that we should not give any legitimacy to any group who thinks that justice is served by lashing teenage girls for the “crime” of being raped, or who buries women up to the neck and stones them to death for the “crime” of adultery, or chops off someone’s hand for stealing a loaf of bread.
Be very clear about this. These are not the misguided actions of a fringe group. These are the essence of Sharia Law, they reflect the beliefs of Muslims as a whole, they are based solely and entirely on the Koran, and they are actions taken by entire countries in pursuit of the blind Islamic fantasies of retribution for imagined wrongs.
So no. We should hold firm on what we believe in, stay calm, and not give an inch.
And keep on cartooning …
w.
And in order to come up with those numbers, you had to include acts engaged for power, acts engaged for resources, acts engaged for vendetta or revenge, and any number of other motives, often by opposing factions within the Muslim world, frequently against their Muslim neighbors, then roll them up in a ball you disingenuously label an attempt at “spreading” the religion.
When did Saudi Arabia become a “major country”? It is an economically powerful country because it sits on the world’s largest petroleum deposits, but it has fewer than 25 million people in a cultural backwater. It ranks 45th in countries ranked in order of population with only 0**.**37% of the world’s people. It has no manufacturing or banking, (to speak of), and it is not a leading center of education or technology. Meanwhile, although there has been a danger that the Fundamentalists in Aceh are a possible threat to Indonesia, we currently have no “beat the raped girl” stories originating from Muslim Indonesia with nearly ten times as many people.
The problem of Fundamentalist Islam is a real and serious one. It does not become more real or more serious by blowing the actions of the fanatics out of proportion to their actual size or importance.
You would do well to study enough about Sharia to realize that there is no one Sharia law–there are multiple disciplines of Sharia legal philosophy with some variants taking nearly barbaric stands based on local tribal interpretations and others being much more “civilized” based on their origins in more open societies.
The people you describe may not be “fringe” elements, but they are clearly not “core” elements of world-wide Islam, either.
A primary strategy of terrorism is to cause the entrenched powers to overreact to the terrorist threat, leading to more sympathy for and recruitment by the terrorists. Based on your words, it would seem that they have already scored a victory over you. I am sorry for you. (On the other hand, the Straight Dope[sup]®[/sup] is intended to oppose ignorance and making broad brush claims based on carefully selected data does not support that effort.)
Yes, they don’t have Sharia Law everywhere … does that somehow make Sharia Law less of a problem? And contrary to your claim, there is already Sharia Law in Aceh:
I guess that facing the threat of being beaten or arrested for wearing your clothes the wrong way means nothing to you … and there is serious pressure in Indonesia from fundamentalists to extend Sharia to the whole country. Again, this may not be a problem to you either.
And the proposed Indonesian “anti-pornography” law should be right up your alley, it’s very modern and fair:
-
Showing cleavage or bottoms or belly buttons – 2 months to 10 months in jail
-
Kissing in public – 1 year to 5 years in jail
-
Nudity – 2 months to 12 months in jail
-
Erotic dancing – 18 months to 7 years in jail
-
Being in possession of a sexual aid such as a vibrator or ribbed condom – 3 years to 15 years in jail
-
Being in possession of a “porno” film ( which could include video footage in your camera of your wife in a bikini on the beach in Thailand) – 8 months to 7 years in jail.
-
Having sex with someone of the same gender, or with a dead person or with an animal – 18m to 7 years in jail
I am not saying that all of those were aimed at “spreading the religion”. However, you write it off as “opposing factions within the Moslem world, frequently against their Moslem neighbors” … surely you don’t think that the Muslim idea of spreading their particular brand of Islam only applies to non-Muslims? Sunnis kill Shiites and vice versa for religious reasons.
That’s hogwash. Try this story about caning, if you have the stomach for it. Or how about:
Nice folks …
Saudi Arabia became a “major country” when it was noticed that they were sitting on the world’s largest pool of oil. If you don’t think that makes them a world player of great importance, you need more help than I can give. In addition, they are the top dog number one major country of the Muslim world because they are the curators and guardians of Mecca, Medina, the Ka’aba, and all the rest. Your idea that they are just a minor bit player in either the modern world or the world of Islam is a joke.
You would do well to give up telling people what they should study, as I have studied the question extensively. Yes, there is no one “Sharia Law”. However, in all of my studies I have not found any “civilized” Sharia Law … perhaps with your extensive knowledge you could help us out here with a couple examples. Indonesia is not even Sharia yet, and their “anti-pornography” law could be your poster child for “civilized” interpretations of Sharia …
In a recent Pew survey, over half the Muslims polled in a variety of countries said that suicide murders of civilians were at times justified … is that a “core” belief or a “fringe” belief to you?
Again, you have no idea what I think. Save your sorrow for your wife and kids or someone who might deserve it, it’s wasted on me. You fight ignorance your way, I’ll fight it mine. Your assumption of the superiority of your method is just another baseless assumption.
You seem convinced that my list of Islamic violence is somehow false, or represents just the normal level of societal violence … since you seem to consider yourself an expert in this field as opposed to us poor fools that you feel sorry for, I’m sure you can easily supply us with a list of Christian or Buddhist atrocities for the first two weeks in January, to see how they compare with the Muslim effort?
I await your list, it should prove very interesting …
w.
I am not saying that all of those were aimed at “spreading the religion”. However, you write it off as “opposing factions within the Moslem world, frequently against their Moslem neighbors” … surely you don’t think that the Muslim idea of spreading their particular brand of Islam only applies to non-Muslims? Sunnis kill Shiites and vice versa for religious reasons.
That’s hogwash. Try this story about caning, if you have the stomach for it. Or how about:
Yes, they don’t have Sharia Law everywhere … does that somehow make Sharia Law less of a problem? And contrary to your claim, there is already Sharia Law in Aceh:
I guess that facing the threat of being beaten or arrested for wearing your clothes the wrong way means nothing to you … and there is serious pressure in Indonesia from fundamentalists to extend Sharia to the whole country. Again, this may not be a problem to you either.
In which case, the proposed Indonesian “anti-pornography” law should be right up your alley, it’s very modern and fair:
-
Showing cleavage or bottoms or belly buttons – 2 months to 10 months in jail
-
Kissing in public – 1 year to 5 years in jail
-
Nudity – 2 months to 12 months in jail
-
Erotic dancing – 18 months to 7 years in jail
-
Being in possession of a sexual aid such as a vibrator or ribbed condom – 3 years to 15 years in jail
-
Being in possession of a “porno” film ( which could include video footage in your camera of your wife in a bikini on the beach in Thailand) – 8 months to 7 years in jail.
-
Having sex with someone of the same gender, or with a dead person or with an animal – 18m to 7 years in jail
Nice folks …
Saudi Arabia became a “major country” when it was noticed that they were sitting on the world’s largest pool of oil. If you don’t think that makes them a world player of great importance, you need more help than I can give you. In addition, they are the top dog number one major country of the Muslim world because they are the curators and guardians of Mecca, Medina, the Ka’aba, and all the rest. Your idea that they are just a minor bit player in either the modern world or the world of Islam is a joke.
You would do well to give up telling people what they should study, as I have studied the question extensively. Your blithe, patronizing assumption that you are the posessor of superior knowledge is un-Christian, unwarranted, and unpleasant.
Yes, there is no one “Sharia Law”. However, in all of my studies I have not found any “civilized” Sharia Law … perhaps with your extensive knowledge you could help us out here with a couple examples. Indonesia is not even Sharia yet, perhaps their proposed “anti-pornography” law is your poster child for “civilized” interpretations of Sharia? …
In a recent Pew survey, over half the Muslims polled in a variety of countries said that suicide murders of civilians were at times justified … is that a “core” belief or a “fringe” belief to you? Because it certainly is not a civilized belief.
Again, you have no idea what I think. Save your sorrow for your wife and kids or someone who might deserve it, it’s wasted on me. You fight ignorance your way, I’ll fight it mine. Your assumption of the superiority of your method is just another of your baseless assumptions. Me, I’d say the Islamists have scored a victory over you, you seem to believe that they are just sheep in wolves clothing …
You seem convinced that my list of Islamic violence is somehow false, or represents just the normal level of societal violence … since you seem to consider yourself an expert in this field as opposed to us poor fools that you feel sorry for, I’m sure you can easily supply us with a list of Christian or Buddhist atrocities for the first two weeks in January, to see how they compare with the Muslim effort?
I await your list, it should prove very interesting …
w.
At least I do not try to lump every act by anyone who happens to be Muslim into some sort of Borg-like monolithic lock step of doom. I do not “write it off” so much as I see each act in its own context. Some of your examples really did have to do with some Muslims trying to impose their religious will on other people. Howevewr, many other cases were just the sort of things that humans do to other humans for a variety of reasons and lumping them all together is merely a way to avoid examining the more complex nature of the world.
And how is that a story of beating a girl for being raped?
If one pretneds that all Sharia Law is the same and that all Sharia Law is a problem and fails to recognize that Sharia is not a single, monolithic force in the world, then the problem is one of ignorance.
Please do not misrepresent what I said. My statement was that the Fundamentalism of Aceh posed a threat to Indonesia, not that there was no Fundamentalist Islam in Aceh. I recognize that there are dangers associated with the Fundamentalist expressions of Islam; I simply do not run about claiming that Islam is a big threat everywhere because some of its practitioners are Fundamentalists.
Refrain from putting (false) words in my mouth. I explicitly said that the Fundamentalism in Aceh was a threat. What I pointed out, (and you have ignored) is that there is not one “Sharia.” The version of Sharia expressed in Saudi Arabia or Aceh is not the same as that expressed in Turkey or even Iran, (to say nothing of Dearborn, MI).
Again, you rant from one extreme to the other. I never claimed that Saudi Arabia was a “bit player.” You claimed that they were a “major country,” yet they do not hold sway over a large population and their influence is limited. They use their economic power to influence whom they can, yet there are no nations that slavishly follow the dictates of Saudi mullahs. The entire Shi’a world ignores them and few Sunni regions look to them for guidance. Even within OPEC they have to carefully wield economic power to avoid rupturing OPEC, itself. There is an entire spectrum of influence between “major country” and “bit player” and Saudi Arabia simply does not rise to the level of the former without being relegated to the latter.
So, you have not been expressing what you think in these posts?
No. I believe that much Islamist violence is a real threat to the regions where it occurs and, ultimately, to world peace. However, I recognize that it is not a uniform situation with a single, simplisitic cause. The Muslims murdering each other in Darfur or Somalia are acting on different principles (that of taking land and power, not the spread of specific religious beliefs) than are the Muslims who join al Qaida to promote Wahabbist Islam in Saudi Arabia’s neighbors. (Just as the Christians of Nigeria and Serbia who have rioted against or massacred Muslims were more interested in land or power than they were in spreading Christianity.)
Treating all the promoters of violence as being focused on a single goal actually supports the Wahabbists and Fundamentalists by driving independent groups to seek out support from among those factions by pretending that they have always belonged to those factions.
Tomndebb, thank you for your response. You say:
You accused me of doing that before, and I denied it then. I deny it again. Pay attention. I have no illusion that all of those acts are aimed at spreading the religion, and that’s twice I’ve said that now. I never said it was.
My problem with Muslim violence is not that it is aimed at one thing. Quite the contrary. It is that Muslim violence is aimed at everything, all the time - at each other, at those who don’t believe as they do, at the West, at their cousin, at their “traditional enemies”, at hairdressers who have the nerve to cut women’s hair, at their daughters and sons, at cartoonists, at people they’ve never met because they’re mad at the cartoonists they never met, at Salman Rushdie because he’s a boring author or some such reason, at the Jews, the list of the victims of the Muslims oh-so-delicate wronged sympathies goes on and on.
Now, if if they talked it out or worked it out when their fragile Islamic constitutions could no longer stand the shock of some woman cutting some other woman’s hair, or (the horror) teaching girls, I wouldn’t mind that.
But no. Strap on the bomb, get out the gun, beat your daughter to death for having a boyfriend of the wrong religion, when someone draws the wrong picture or says the wrong words, death by violence.
Thats my problem with Islamic violence. It’s not that it’s aimed at one thing, as you keep harping on.
It’s that there’s so damned much horrific bloody violence, often wounding and mutilating and killing women and children by the score, violence that in eyes of the perpetrator is done in the name of, and blessed by the teachings of, Allah …
The question in the OP is badly posed. There is no “self-censorship” when a mob says “don’t print that or we’ll riot”. That is censorship through intimidation, pure and simple.
w.
I think this is the crux of it - the OP is essentially asking should we censor ourselves to avoid the consequences of offending militant muslims, and I would agree that this is not really “self censoring” so much as protecting one’s neck. More broadly, should we be willing to censor ourselves to suit religious requirements? No, as we shouldn’t be willing to do so for any subject (I’m in the camp that is dubious about restricting hate speech - who gets to decide it’s hateful?). But, as others have pointed out, just because you have a right to say something doesn’t mean you can claim immunity to or protection from any negative consequences from doing so. If you’re being a dick you’re kind of asking for it.
Sure:
And my poroblem with your broad sweeping declarations about “Muslims” is that you have simply created a boogeyman that makes every and any action by any Muslim part of a single problem rrather than looking at all the different events that are happening in the world, recognizing which ones are truly linked and which ones are coincidental.
For example: Why are the Filipino Muslims looking to aid from al Qaida? For years they were not “Muslims” but “Communists” as they resisted their displacement from their lands and homes by the “Christian” “Capitalist” (not really very “democratic”) Philipine government. Then communism collapsed. They were still dispossessed. They were still oppressed. No “Christian” “Capitalist” “Democratic” government would intercede for them with the Philipine government, so they looked elsewhere for assistance and found someone who would help–radical Muslims. The Chechnyans resisted Russian conquest and Soviet domination for over 150 years and got no assistance from anyone. Then al Qaida and related groups said “We’ll help you” and all of a sudden, the Chechnyans are part of the great Islamic bugaboo.
The reason that most of the violence in the world, today, is among Muslim countries is that it was Muslim countries that were sidelined by the tension between Europe and Asia and then between the Soviets and the U.S. (with all the great powers finding ways to marginalize them).
There is a very real danger from various Islamist groups, but when someone simply boils it down to a simplistic “Islam is bad” caricature, then we ignore actual events and make stupid mistakes that encourage those Muslims who are fanatics to gain greater power and control: witness our idiotic invasion of the fairly secular Iraq. It is not just that indiscriminately lumping disparate people together is a dumb thing to do (although it is), it is that that sort of simplistic lack of thought causes people to make really horrible mistakes.
When the attacks on Muslims by Serbs or Christian Nigerians or Sri Lankan Buddhists is a local problem while attacks by Muslims on Muslims in Somalia or Darfur is a Muslim problem, then you have oversimplified the world and have are setting yourself up to make really bad decisions.
The latest load of crap:
A muslim woman check-out operator at Marks and Spencer, a well known British chain store, refused to sell to a customer a book of childrens bible stories, she considered it unclean. 
Valteron: I agree with all you say, we should not abandon our beliefs to accomodate the beliefs of others
Inayat Bunglawala, assistant secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, described the assistant’s comments as “offensive” and called for Marks & Spencer to carry out a thorough investigation.
I agree with the Muslim spokesperson: If this happened as described, then the clerk ought to be disciplined, perhaps fired.
As the newspaper article says, what would have happened if a Christian had refused to sell a copy of the koran?
There is far to much of this crap going on, refusal to sell tobacco, refusal to sell alcohol, refusal to do anything that doesn’t fall in line with the Muslim way of thinking.
Bollocks to it all, enough is enough
You left out birth control–and in the U.S., there are Christian pharmacists refusing to dispense that.
I’m not sure whether a single insufficiently attested incident at Marks and Spencer–one condemned by a Muslim association if it occurred–quite qualifies as self-censorship in the face of Islamic militancy, however.
there’s little doubt in my mind that the incident did occur.
Birth control, I guess, was included in “refusal to do anything etc”
tomndebb, you seem confused by two ideas that you think are related in some fashion.
I said Muslims believe in spreading their religion by violence.
I also gave a list of Muslim violence in the first two weeks of January.
I did not say, nor believe, nor imply that all of that violence was designed to spread Islam. Even the most cursory reading of the list by the most benighted fool reveals that.
Despite that, you keep trying to insist that I said that all Muslim violence is designed to spread the religion. So let me say it real slowly for you.
N-o-t a-l-l M-u-s-l-i-m v-i-o-l-e-n-c-e i-s d-e-s-i-g-n-e-d t-o s-p-r-e-a-d I-s-l-a-m.
That makes three times. Let it go, bro’, you’r on a loser. I never said it.
Let me add that you seem to be confused by the proximity of my two statements, so here’s a clue. tomndebb, the fact that two statements are near to each other in a piece of writing does not mean than one statement is referring to the other. Let me know if you don’t understand that, and I’ll repeat it more slowly as well.
Now that we have that out of the way, perhaps you could provide us with the examples of “civilized” Sharia law that you feel so sorry for us not knowing. You said you knew of some … c’mon, no need to be shy, bust them out for examination.
Next, it appears that you are right. To date, no woman has been sentenced in Aceh for being raped … but then, as far as I can tell, since Sharia law began in Aceh, no rape case has come up.
But this is not too surprising. In Aceh these days, under your “civilized” Sharia law, if a woman accuses a man of rape and cannot produce four male witnesses to back up her story, she can be accused of qazaf (slanderous accusation) and flogged 80 lashes if she is unable to prove the rape.
So , tomndebb, you’re 100% correct, no woman has yet been charged with being raped in Aceh … and you are shortsighted enough to claim this is good news. You’re like the President of Iran proudly saying “we have no homosexuals in Iran”. Well, yeah, when you hang people for homosexuality, they tend to disappear. And when you make women legally liable for being raped, the victim tends not to make a complaint, and some people are stupid enough to think that the issues of homosexuality and rape are thus solved … you still with me here? I can slow down if you want.
So, still waiting for your examples of “civilized” Sharia law, still hoping for your corresponding list of Buddhist violence or Christian violence … in fact, still hoping for anything from you more substantive than “I know so much more about this that I feel sorry for you” and “Well, nobody’s been raped yet”, I remain,
Yr. Obdt. Svt.,
w.
This is all getting way too theoretical. As I mentioned before, this subject is personal to me because I’m a cartoonist. In support of the 12 Danish cartoonists, in the year of the Cartoon War (2006), I did 12 cartoons of Muhammad . I feel that in addition to being funny, they are a valuable commentary on the Cartoon War itself.
Now, tomndebb, or anyone else, let’s bring this discussion from the theoretical to the practical. Should I “self-censor” these cartoons? And if so, why?
w.
You seem to have some problems, here, yourself. I have not repeatedly made any claim to what you said. I responded to your first post and then, when you denied having made any statement from which I might infer what I did, I pointed out the statement that led to my inference.
Howevr, you are also not actually reading what I have posted, so I see no reason for you to make such an issue of my inference on that one point. My specific point is that you have issued a general condemnation of Islam and Muslims, making a number of broad brush claims that are not really supported by the facts. I agree that we need to defend against Fundamentalist Islam. I disagree that every violent or aggressive act by any Muslims anywhere arises from Islam and I have pointed out how engaging in such simplistic belief can (and will) lead to errors in judgment regarding how to respond to such acts.
Another case of not reading so well on your part, so its 2- 1, my favor. What I said was that there is no (single) Sharia law. It is a series of judicial philosophies. When Sharia is defined by Wahabbists, we call it barbaric. When it is incorporated into the civil codes of Indonesia, India, the Philipines, and other countries, we call it “family law” or “civil law” tailored to specific cultural groups–a practice that is not limited to countries with Muslim populations. No nation has an entire legal system based on one of the various Sharia philosophies, although some countries employ it more than others.
I already pointed out why you will not find “corresponding” violence among Christians and Buddhists: they tend to live in those parts of the world where the Great Powers did not leave disrupted societies where individual violence is more common. On the other hand, you seem to have ignored the explicit examples of violence carried out by Christians and Buddhists that I have already identified.
Now, a word of advice:
Had your following statement been addressed to another poster, rather than to me, it would very likely have incurred an official Warning. A bit of sarcasm goes a long way, but direct personal insults are not permitted in this Forum.
You would do very well to stick to discussing the issues and not attacking the person with whom you have a disagreement:
[ /Moderating ]
tomndebb, thanks for your reply. We’ll have to agree to disagree about what I meant. Regarding what you consider to be a “personal insult”, viz:
perhaps you should put on your moderators hat regarding the following statement:
This is accusing me of being duped and fooled by the Islamists, and saying that you are sorry for me because I have been fooled in that way. It manages to be both insulting and condescending at the same time.
Please explain to me how it is OK for you to call me a dupe and a fool, but it’s not OK for me to suggest that either you didn’t read what I wrote, or that you failed to understand a very simple statement.
Regarding “civilized” Sharia Law, you say:
But you did not say that a country that only allows a few of its laws to be based on Sharia is a “civilized” form of Sharia Law. You said about Sharia:
(… which contained a gratuitous insult about the extent of my studies, that should have called forth a reproof from the moderator … except unfortunately …)
OK. Name me one of the “multiple disciplines” of Sharia legal philosophy that you are referring to. I’ll give you a hint. “India” is not a separate “discipline of Sharia legal philosophy”. It is a country. The wikipedia article you referred to says India and Pakistan have “only a few Islamic provisions in family law.” Is your claim that Sharia Law is only “civilized” when it only applies to a few provisions of family law, and not to general jurisprudence?
Finally, perhaps you could list the “few provisions of family law” based on Sharia which are being used in India, and explain to us why they are “civilized” when other Sharia laws are not. I don’t know which ones they are using in India … but unlike you, I’ll not claim they are “civilized” laws until I’ve actually read them …
w.
tomndebb, moving on to some of your other points, you say:
I do not say, did not say, and have never said that any violent or aggressive act by any Muslims anywhere arises from Islam. Straw man. You are correct that that belief will lead to errors in judgement.
Say what? The citation you posted earlier says (emphasis mine):
Kinda sounds like an entire legal system based on Sharia to me … what am I missing here?
The reason that Christians and Buddhists are less violent than Muslims is because of something the Great Powers did a half century or more ago?
Riiiight, of course, it’s all the fault of the Great Powers, how foolish of me not to have noticed that … has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus was a man of peace and founded a religion of peace, and Muhammad was a man of war and founded a religion of war, that would be far too simple. The fact that Muslims are the only people in the entire world who riot, threaten, injure, and kill people over cartoons is all because of the Great Powers. Great. Glad that’s covered.
But let’s move past that, let’s take Thailand as an example, since the Great Powers never conquered them. Care to hazard a guess about whether it was Muslims or Buddhists that have beheaded 5 people in separate attacks in Thailand? Care to guess whether it is Muslims or Buddhists that have been responsible for all the bombings of markets and public places?
You keep thinking that the violence is somehow separate from the violent nature of Islam itself. You keep thinking that it is just some fringe elements who support suicide bombing, although I have pointed out the Pew poll that finds that it is a majority view in many Islamic countries, and a sizable minority view in many others. As someone once commented to me, you would do well to study more about Islam … you still subscribe to the view that they are sheep in wolves’ clothing.
“Religion of Peace” my ass … it reminds me of the old rule, that any country with “Democratic” in its name … isn’t.
w.