# Should witness testimony be disregarded if it conflicts with self-defense claim for a murder trial? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664 "2015-01-12T23:42:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/1 "2015-01-12T23:42:58Z")
In a [Pit thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=729907), we were discussing the [shooting of Jordan Davis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Jordan_Davis) (in short, Michael Dunn admitted to shooting Davis in a car at a gas station, claiming that Davis pointed a shotgun at him – in contrast to testimony from the other witnesses in the car with Davis, the absence of a shotgun or any other evidence supporting self-defense, and with testimony from Dunn’s girlfriend, and Dunn was found guilty) – and poster **Steophan** asserted that if the accused claims self-defense, the jury _must disregard_ conflicting testimony and find him not guilty, at least if the witnesses were close to the deceased. (example post [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18042692&postcount=539) – there are many) To me that’s totally ludicrous, and would make it trivially easy to get away with murder. It seems obvious to me that juries should have the opportunity and power to hear witness testimony and evaluate whether its believable, or the accused’s testimony is believable, beyond a reasonable doubt. Can **Steophan** or anyone make better sense of this argument? Am I wrong that it would make it trivially easy to kill someone? ---
**Author:** ![iljitsch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/77aa72/32.png) [@iljitsch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iljitsch)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/2 "2015-01-12T23:47:36Z")
Well, obviously. If self defense has to be based on reality, that makes it so much harder to get away with just shooting anytime you feel paranoid. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/3 "2015-01-12T23:47:50Z")
No conviction should rest on witness testimony that could be biased. That’s the sum of my argument. It’s not limited to self defence, it should apply to any conviction. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/4 "2015-01-12T23:49:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No conviction should rest on witness testimony that could be biased. > > That’s the sum of my argument. It’s not limited to self defence, it should apply to any conviction. The Dunn conviction was not based solely on witness testimony that could be biased. As I stated in the Pit thread – this argument means that anyone on earth could shoot my wife in front of me and get away with murder as long as they claimed my wife pointed a shotgun at them. According to you, the jury _must disregard my testimony_, even though I was there and witnessed it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/5 "2015-01-12T23:55:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As I stated in the Pit thread – this argument means that anyone on earth could shoot my wife in front of me and get away with murder as long as they claimed my wife pointed a shotgun at them. According to you, the jury _must disregard my testimony_, even though I was there and witnessed it. What part of > [@Steophan](#): > > No conviction should rest on witness testimony that could be biased. don’t you understand? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/6 "2015-01-12T23:55:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What part of > > don’t you understand? All witness testimony could be biased. Your statement taken at face value means juries should disregard all witness testimony. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/7 "2015-01-12T23:59:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What part of > > don’t you understand? Do you concede that the Dunn case was not based solely on witness testimony that could be biased? There was physical evidence and the testimony of Dunn’s girlfriend which told a different story than he did. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/8 "2015-01-13T00:00:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > All witness testimony could be biased. Your statement taken at face value means juries should disregard all witness testimony. > [@Steophan](#): > > No conviction should rest on witness testimony that could be biased. That’s all there is to say about it. If the testimony could be biased, there is reasonable doubt of guilt. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/9 "2015-01-13T00:02:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s all there is to say about it. If the testimony could be biased, there is reasonable doubt of guilt. So all witness testimony should be disregarded, then, apparently, according to you. This would probably save a lot of money – no need to transport witnesses to the trial any more, and shorter trials with no pesky witness testimony and questioning! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/10 "2015-01-13T00:04:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No conviction should rest on witness testimony that could be biased. So why accept Dunn’s testimony that he was being threatened by Davis and was acting in self-defense? Isn’t that just as biased as the other witness testimonies? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/11 "2015-01-13T00:07:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There was physical evidence and the testimony of Dunn’s girlfriend which told a different story than he did. No, there isn’t. Dunn was incorrect about there being a shotgun. That says nothing to whether it was reasonable for him to believe that he was being threatened by one. You have the (moral) right to use lethal force to defend yourself if you’re in fear of imminent death or serious injury, and if a reasonable person in your position would be in such fear. It is morally wrong to punish anyone of any crime if it is not proven beyond reasonable doubt that the crime was committed. That includes proving beyond reasonable doubt that either he wasn’t in said fear, or that no reasonable person could have been. Any law that disagrees with that is bad law, and that law needs to be changed, and any ethical juror would vote to nullify in such a case. If you disagree with this, you either disagree with the right to self defence, or the right to be presumed innocent of a crime until proven guilty. These are not points I care to argue about, as far as I’m concerned they are axiomatic. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/12 "2015-01-13T00:07:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s all there is to say about it. If the testimony could be biased, there is reasonable doubt of guilt. I think we need to define the word reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/13 "2015-01-13T00:10:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, there isn’t. Dunn was incorrect about there being a shotgun. That says nothing to whether it was reasonable for him to believe that he was being threatened by one. The other witnesses’ testimony, and the testimony of Dunn’s girlfriend, say plenty about this. > [@](#): > > You have the (moral) right to use lethal force to defend yourself if you’re in fear of imminent death or serious injury, and if a reasonable person in your position would be in such fear. It is morally wrong to punish anyone of any crime if it is not proven beyond reasonable doubt that the crime was committed. That includes proving beyond reasonable doubt that either he wasn’t in said fear, or that no reasonable person could have been. It’s reasonable for a combination of witness testimony, physical evidence, and the testimony of Dunn’s girlfriend to add up to this reasonable doubt in the view of the jury (as it did). If someone shot my wife in front of me but said she pointed a shotgun at him, the lack of a shotgun in addition to my own testimony might reasonably (depending on the nature of the physical evidence and the nature of my and the accused’s testimony) consist of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. > [@](#): > > Any law that disagrees with that is bad law, and that law needs to be changed, and any ethical juror would vote to nullify in such a case. I disagree. And I’ve never heard of any person on earth that agrees with you. Can you produce a single lawyer, legal scholar, blogger, Doper, or _anyone at all_ that feels this way? At least then I’ll know it’s not just you. > [@](#): > > If you disagree with this, you either disagree with the right to self defence, or the right to be presumed innocent of a crime until proven guilty. These are not points I care to argue about, as far as I’m concerned they are axiomatic. No – both of those things can exist if juries have the power to evaluate witness testimony. In fact, both of these rights are _harmed_ if juries can’t evaluate witness testimony as part of a collection of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![iljitsch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/77aa72/32.png) [@iljitsch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iljitsch)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/14 "2015-01-13T00:12:48Z")
The way I understand it is that it’s up to the shooter to make a reasonable case that it was self defense, the prosecution does NOT have to prove that it wasn’t beyond a reasonable doubt. As a matter of public policy, we do want people to use some restraint when applying self defense. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/15 "2015-01-13T00:13:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No conviction should rest on witness testimony that could be biased. The Defendant has a right to confront the witnesses against him…to challenge their testimony, usually through cross examination, for accuracy, bias, etc. The jury then determines whether the testimony is credible or not. If they think the witness is lying or mistaken, they are free to ignore the testimony, but if they believe the testimony is true and correct, they are entitled to consider it in light of the other evidence to reach a verdict. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/16 "2015-01-13T00:13:54Z")
It doesn’t sound like Dunn’s claim of self defense was credible to the jury and that there was not a reasonable doubt as to his guilt based his testimony, the testimony of the other witnesses, and the physical evidence. What’s the problem? This is why we have juries, to determine fact (and law - but let’s not hijack this thread). If juries were just machines that accepted all claims as reasonable, no one would EVER be convicted of a crime because the jury would have to accept EVERY innocence claim of each criminal as creating a reasonable doubt. Right? ---
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/17 "2015-01-13T00:50:37Z")
I don’t agree with the poster that no witness testimony should be accepted, but I think the courts do tend to put too much emphasis on it. Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, and has led to some pretty severe miscarriages of justice. And the legal system discourages people from telling the truth and saying “I’m not sure what I saw” or “I’m pretty sure it was this, but it was dark out”. I mean, IDing suspects is really hard, especially when you’re a victim of a crime by a stranger: you’re scared and high on adrenaline, and probably aren’t looking real closely at the perpetrator. One of my [favorite](http://lawcomic.net/) law sites is doing a [series on eyewitness testimony right now](http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=2995). We recently had a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=731079&highlight=witness+identification) about someone feeling that the police was trying to get him to ID a certain suspect when she wasn’t sure about it. And yet, having a victim point to a defendant and saying “it was him” is one of the the most persuasive arguments to a jury, where any objective analysis would definitely not rate that as super tight evidence, even assuming everyone is acting in good faith. In this case, I think the testimony that there was no shotgun is pretty persuasive, coming from multiple parties who would have actually been in a position to know. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/18 "2015-01-13T00:55:17Z")
> [@buddy431](#): > > In this case, I think the testimony that there was no shotgun is pretty persuasive, coming from multiple parties who would have actually been in a position to know. The issue isn’t proving that there was no shotgun. The issue is proving that Dunn could not reasonably have believed there was one. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/19 "2015-01-13T01:02:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The issue isn’t proving that there was no shotgun. The issue is proving that Dunn could not reasonably have believed there was one. The three cases are: 1. There was a shotgun and Dunn saw it. He was justified in defending himself. 2. There was no shotgun, but Dunn thought he saw something resembling a shotgun. He was truthful but misguided. 3. There was no shotgun, and Dunn was lying in order to claim self dense for what was a shooting based on rage, impulsiveness, error, racism etc. he was blatantly lying to save himself. Somehow how we need to distinguish between case 2 and 3. It’s very difficult to prove what is or isn’t in someone’s mind. The other witness testimony (that there was no shotgun and no one else saw anything resembling one) goes to Dunn’s credibility. The evidence could not support what Dunn was claiming and his testimony was found not credible. If juries could never discount claims of self defense based on misunderstandings (case 2) then people could lie all the time and no one could make a judgement on it. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/20 "2015-01-13T01:06:39Z")
> [@buddy431](#): > > I don’t agree with the poster that no witness testimony should be accepted, but I think the courts do tend to put too much emphasis on it. Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, and has led to some pretty severe miscarriages of justice. And the legal system discourages people from telling the truth and saying “I’m not sure what I saw” or “I’m pretty sure it was this, but it was dark out”. I mean, IDing suspects is really hard, especially when you’re a victim of a crime by a stranger: you’re scared and high on adrenaline, and probably aren’t looking real closely at the perpetrator. One of my [favorite](http://lawcomic.net/) law sites is doing a [series on eyewitness testimony right now](http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=2995). We recently had a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=731079&highlight=witness+identification) about someone feeling that the police was trying to get him to ID a certain suspect when she wasn’t sure about it. And yet, having a victim point to a defendant and saying “it was him” is one of the the most persuasive arguments to a jury, where any objective analysis would definitely not rate that as super tight evidence, even assuming everyone is acting in good faith. > > In this case, I think the testimony that there was no shotgun is pretty persuasive, coming from multiple parties who would have actually been in a position to know. Do you think there is a defense attorney anywhere that does not know about the problems with witness testimony? They are very well versed in it. That is what cross examination is for. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664.md?page=2)