# Should witness testimony be disregarded if it conflicts with self-defense claim for a murder trial? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664 "2015-01-12T23:42:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/141 "2015-01-14T01:16:12Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You just want to be able to kill people and bar any of the most likely witnesses from testifying. > > This would be a disaster for the jury system in general and hi use law in particular. > > I, on the other hand, would prefer that self-defense be eliminated as s complete defense to homicide and relevant only as a mitigating factor for sentencing. If the finder of fact accepts your claim of self-defense, then the judge could suspend your sentence. So you don’t think people should have the legal right to defend themselves. That’s… pretty astonishing, to be honest. Killing someone in self defence should not be a crime, and those who kill in self defence are not criminals but the victims of crime. It’s pretty disgusting that you want to treat victims as criminals. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/142 "2015-01-14T01:16:54Z")
Potentially biased? By what criteria are people to be judged to be _potentially_ biased? Everyone is _potentially_ biased. I might have a bias against people for a thousand of myriad reasons. Who judges? Of course people should defend themselves. But the immoral shouldn’t be able to easily use self defense to kill people either. There has to be a happy medium. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/143 "2015-01-14T01:17:15Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > The reason no one is understanding you is because what you are saying is so deeply stupid, people are baffled. You’re typing in coherent English, so obviously you haven’t sustained some serious head injury, and your descriptions of reality are close enough to true that it seems you aren’t delusional. You are saying incredibly ignorant nonsense, and when it’s shown to you just how bafflingly dumb your statements are, you either double down in some weirdly hostile way, or you deny that’s even what you said. Your opinion is utter garbage, and it’s surprising to people that you continue to stand by it, when even Koko the gorilla would have signed an apology by now. > > You should take it as a compliment, really. That’s a well reasoned, nuanced and insightful rebuttal to my arguments. Thankyou for your helpful contribution. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/144 "2015-01-14T01:29:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If the jury judge that a witness is unbiased, beyond reasonable doubt, that’s fine. > [@Steophan](#): > > Sigh. Dunn should not have been convicted because _no-one_ should be convicted based on uncorroborated, potentially biased witness testimony. These are mutually contradictory and incompatible statements. Why is that not obvious to you? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/145 "2015-01-14T01:31:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So you don’t think people should have the legal right to defend themselves. That’s… pretty astonishing, to be honest. Killing someone in self defence should not be a crime, and those who kill in self defence are not criminals but the victims of crime. It’s pretty disgusting that you want to treat victims as criminals. When it comes right down to it, killing is killing. I want people to be very circumspect about using deadly force against any other human being for any reason. If it turns out they were victims and can persuade a jury to believe them, I am willing for the system to withhold punishment. But they have killed, and that should never go without societal censure. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/146 "2015-01-14T01:32:05Z")
The Pit thread, now with a higher, GD level of insults! Or not. **Steophan** , you’ve been shown how wrong you are six ways from Sunday. It’s time for you to cut your losses and give up. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/147 "2015-01-14T01:32:43Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > These are mutually contradictory and incompatible statements. Why is that not obvious to you? Someone who is proven beyond reasonable doubt not to be biased is not potentially biased. Testimony that is corroborated is not uncorroborated. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/148 "2015-01-14T01:33:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > But they have killed, and that should never go without societal censure. Nonsense. Killing, by itself, is neither illegal nor immoral. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/149 "2015-01-14T01:35:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Someone who is proven beyond reasonable doubt not to be biased is not potentially biased. > > Testimony that is corroborated is not uncorroborated. How do you prove what secrets people keep in their hearts? Who will do this perfect prescreening? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/150 "2015-01-14T01:37:10Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Or not. **Steophan** , you’ve been shown how wrong you are six ways from Sunday. It’s time for you to cut your losses and give up. Not really. People have claimed I _must_ be wrong because of what they believe the consequences of my beliefs are. But I’m not going to change my view that people have a right to defend themselves, and a right to be presumed innocent of any charges against them, because of the possibility that someone might get away with murder. A society where a few people get away with murder is going to be a far better society than one where people have to go in fear of either being attacked and beaten or killed with no right to defend themselves, or else being treated like a criminal for being the victim of such an attack. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/151 "2015-01-14T01:39:10Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > How do you prove what secrets people keep in their hearts? Seriously? We’re talking about whether someone has a bias against a defendant, not whether they have a crush on their wife’s sister. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/152 "2015-01-14T01:41:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Seriously? We’re talking about whether someone has a bias against a defendant, not whether they have a crush on their wife’s sister. Why would that not be a bias? ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/153 "2015-01-14T01:41:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So you don’t think people should have the legal right to defend themselves. That’s… pretty astonishing, to be honest. Killing someone in self defence should not be a crime, and those who kill in self defence are not criminals but the victims of crime. It’s pretty disgusting that you want to treat victims as criminals. Eh, it’s strange, but I’d rather live in the world where everyone who killed served a little time, than in your world where murder is de facto legal. I suspect most people would. Why, I suspect _you_ would, if you ever were unlucky enough to inhabit the society you hypothesize. After all, how many times have you murdered in self-defense? Zero, right? And how many times has someone wished they could kill you and get off scot-free?. Judging by your personality, probably _thousands of times_. Maybe millions, but nah… you’re a shut in right? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/154 "2015-01-14T01:41:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Someone who is proven beyond reasonable doubt not to be biased is not potentially biased. > > Testimony that is corroborated is not uncorroborated. It is possible that Witness A harbors an unnatural hatred of men in red hats. No evidence has been shown that A does so, I as the juror have no reason to believe that A does so, the red hat has never been mentioned in court, and I have convinced myself that A is a reliable witness who is telling the truth. It is still possible that A is lying through their teeth because B was wearing a red hat. I have no reasonable doubt that A is lying, but the potential is still there. “Beyond a reasonable doubt” does not mean “absolute certainty,” and it would never be possible to prove lack of bias. That’s a nonsensical statement. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/155 "2015-01-14T01:44:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nonsense. Killing, by itself, is neither illegal nor immoral. That’s a world I don’t want to live in. And your view runs contrary to the arc of human civilization. Even given the numerous genocides since 1900, we are living in a time when fewer humans (as a proportion) die from human-on-human violence than any time in human history. More specifically, we live in a country that is experiencing the lowest levels of human-on-human violence, and gun ownership in decades. These are all good trends. Deadly force by humans and humans is becoming less and less acceptable, and this trend should continue ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/156 "2015-01-14T01:48:17Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Eh, it’s strange, but I’d rather live in the world where everyone who killed served a little time, than in your world where murder is de facto legal. I suspect most people would. Why, I suspect _you_ would, if you ever were unlucky enough to inhabit the society you hypothesize. No, I wouldn’t want innocent people to serve time under any circumstances. Even if that were to increase the risk to me. Not that I believe it would, as I’m not in the habit of attacking random people and putting them in the position of needing to defend themselves against me. Most people can want something that’s wrong. That doesn’t make it right. Killing in self defence is not wrong. Not even slightly. It is deserving of neither condemnation nor punishment. > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > After all, how many times have you murdered in self-defense? Zero, right? Well, obviously zero, that’s a contradiction in terms. If it’s in self defence, it’s not murder, and if it’s murder, there’s a reason other than self defence. > [@](#): > > And how many times has someone wished they could kill you and get off scot-free?. Judging by your personality, probably _thousands of times_. Maybe millions, but nah… you’re a shut in right? And yet still more charming, intelligent, and eloquent than you, based on your contributions to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/157 "2015-01-14T01:49:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s a world I don’t want to live in. That’s a shame, because you do. **Steophan** is quite correct: devoid of any context, killing is neither moral nor immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/158 "2015-01-14T01:50:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Killing in self defence is not wrong. Not even slightly. It is deserving of neither condemnation nor punishment. I disagree completely. Killing another human being always makes you a worse person and a little more dangerous to the people around you than you were before, even if you had to—or think you had to—do it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/159 "2015-01-14T01:50:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s a world I don’t want to live in. And yet it’s the world you do live in. I’ve asked this question before, and no-one’s been able to provide an answer. Is there a legal code, anywhere, which criminalises killing regardless of circumstances? Every crime involving death that I’m aware of has other elements of the crime. Otherwise you would be criminalising genuine accidents, and that’s indefensible. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/160 "2015-01-14T01:51:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Not really. People have claimed I _must_ be wrong because of what they believe the consequences of my beliefs are. Yes. You have generally dominated the logical argument aspect of this thread, because you have been arguing with a collection of people that cannot argue well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664.md?page=9)