# Should witness testimony be disregarded if it conflicts with self-defense claim for a murder trial? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664 "2015-01-12T23:42:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/161 "2015-01-14T02:06:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And yet it’s the world you do live in. I live in an imperfect world, legally speaking. You want to make it worse. As for the morals of killing, that’s just your opinion, and as far as I’m concerned, a reprehensible one. > [@](#): > > I’ve asked this question before, and no-one’s been able to provide an answer. Is there a legal code, anywhere, which criminalises killing regardless of circumstances? Every crime involving death that I’m aware of has other elements of the crime. > > Otherwise you would be criminalising genuine accidents, and that’s indefensible. How many people have specifically argued that intent or negligence or some other factor indicating culpability should be completely eliminated? If your question hasn’t been answered, it’s because it’s irrelevant to the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/162 "2015-01-14T02:09:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And yet it’s the world you do live in. This comment is ironic, in that you ALSO live in a world that differs dramatically from your professed standard with respect to the efficacy of potentially biased witness testimony. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/163 "2015-01-14T02:10:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s a shame, because you do. > > **Steophan** is quite correct: devoid of any context, killing is neither moral nor immoral. I agree with this, but it also seems kind of irrelevant: the situation under discussion is where there’s some evidence (biased or not) that there was no legitimate self defence. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/164 "2015-01-14T02:21:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This would be a disaster for the jury system in general and hi use law in particular. What is “hi use law”? A google search doesn’t return any results. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/165 "2015-01-14T02:55:06Z")
That’s autocorrect for “homicide” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/166 "2015-01-14T03:13:53Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I agree with this, but it also seems kind of irrelevant: the situation under discussion is where there’s some evidence (biased or not) that there was no legitimate self defence. Yes, it is. For some bizarre reason, once people disagree with a poster, many of them seem dedicated to defending each rhetorical hill to the death rather than conceding points like this, which you correctly identify as irrelevant. Then **Steohan** – rather than defending his opinion – can shift to showing how foolish the lack of concession is. Much better to concede the irrelevant point and then return to the main point: this opinion about evidence law has no real world existence. It’s simply a fantasy Steophan has created. He’s free to fantasize, but not to suggest that his fantasy is real. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/167 "2015-01-14T03:38:42Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > How do you prove what secrets people keep in their hearts? > > Who will do this perfect prescreening? The Shadow, obviously. He knows what evil lurks in the heart of men. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/168 "2015-01-14T04:16:17Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What reason do you have to think any of those people are biased? I was a juror on a murder trial several years ago. The facts were that three men stormed into a crackhouse, taking two people hostage in a basement. Two assailants then went to the first floor and robbed and murdered a drug dealer. All three fled. One assailant was quickly arrested and found guilty of felony murder. The two remaining assailants were tried together a few years later. The main evidence against the two men was testimony from the man who was already convicted, and testimony from the two people who were held hostage. There wasn’t any physical evidence such as fingerprints or DNA that tied the two defendants to the scene of the crime. The defense argued that the convicted man was bribed into testifying against the two defendants by reduction of his sentence from life in prison to “merely” 70 years (or something like that). The defense also argued that the two people taken hostage were trying to frame the two defendants because they were members of a rival gang. Under your principles, is it fair to say that you think the jury ought to acquit the two defendants? After all, the alleged co-conspirator could be biased because of the reduction in his sentence, and the two hostages may have an axe to grind against another gang. Seems to me that you are saying that the jury cannot be trusted to evaluate the credibility of the testimony simply because a lawyer can dream up some way in which all of these witnesses just might have a bias, but the jury would be prevented from judging whether that bias actually changes their testimony. Am I correct? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/169 "2015-01-14T04:36:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s autocorrect for “homicide” I seriously doubt that, since “hi use” isn’t a word or phrase in the English language. Why would “homicide” auto-correct to that? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/170 "2015-01-14T04:40:05Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I seriously doubt that, since “hi use” isn’t a word or phrase in the English language. > > Why would “homicide” auto-correct to that? Never used auto-correct, have you? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/171 "2015-01-14T04:53:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Never used auto-correct, have you? I just tried it on my phone. That’s not how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/172 "2015-01-14T05:44:09Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I just tried it on my phone. That’s not how it works. You just tried what on your phone? Typing in homicide? You’re right. That’s _not_ how auto-correct works. For one thing, you need to misspell the word, first. If you want to reproduce a specific auto-correct error, such as **Acsenray** ’s “hi use” error, you’d need to misspell it in exactly the same way **Acsenray** did. And you’d need to be using the same auto-correct software, since each one works a little differently. And they’re adaptive, so likely, you’d need not just the same software **Acsenray** used, but the actual phone he typed it in. But hey, nice try anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/173 "2015-01-14T11:47:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Seems to me that you are saying that the jury cannot be trusted to evaluate the credibility of the testimony simply because a lawyer can dream up some way in which all of these witnesses just might have a bias, but the jury would be prevented from judging whether that bias actually changes their testimony. Am I correct? The jury should be trusted to evaluate the credibility of the witnesses. That evaluation should include being certain beyond reasonable doubt that the witnesses are not lying to get their prison sentences reduced, or to frame a rival gang member. That evaluation would normally involve comparing the witness statements to the other evidence to see if it’s supported by it - corroboration. If there is no such corroboration, and no judgement that the witnesses are telling the truth beyond reasonable doubt, then the jury should not rely on those statements for a conviction. Were I a juror at your trial, based solely on the evidence you provided, I’d find not guilty. There is reason to doubt the witnesses, there is no other evidence, so the case is not proven beyond reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/174 "2015-01-14T11:51:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Were I a juror at your trial, based solely on the evidence you provided, I’d find not guilty. There is reason to doubt the witnesses, there is no other evidence, so the case is not proven beyond reasonable doubt. You’re a dream juror for the defense. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/175 "2015-01-14T11:59:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’re a dream juror for the defense. Good. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/176 "2015-01-14T12:06:20Z")
Hey **Bricker** since you’re here post [#129](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18050798&postcount=129)? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/177 "2015-01-14T12:18:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > My philosophy is that no-one should be convicted based upon the uncorroborated testimony of potentially biased witnesses. I believe that Dunn’s conviction is unsafe because of this. You disagree, because unlike me you believe that evidence corroborates the witness statements. > > You have shown no interest in discussing the philosophy, the only part that is actually worth debating. Simply stating repeatedly that I have the facts wrong in the Dunn case neither changes my mind about that case nor furthers debate about the issue. I don’t think we can debate the philosophy coherently without understanding words and phrases like “uncorroborated” and “potentially biased”. The way you use them defies understanding – if the Dunn case’s witness testimony is “uncorroborated”, then nothing is… and every human witness is “potentially biased”. > [@](#): > > If you agree with my philosophy but disagree with the application of it to the Dunn case, there’s literally nothing to discuss. If you disagree with my philosophy, discuss that rather than harping on about a case where you don’t even think it’s relevant. No, there’s literally the Dunn case to discuss. That’s a topic that human beings are able to converse on. Specifically, how does the word “uncorroborated” apply to the Dunn case? Why does the additional evidence that supports the witnesses’ testimony not count as corroboration? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/178 "2015-01-14T12:20:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. You have generally dominated the logical argument aspect of this thread, because you have been arguing with a collection of people that cannot argue well. Are you kidding? How does his use of “uncorroborated” and “potentially biased” count as “logical argument”? How can we understand his philosophy as he applies it to the Dunn case? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/179 "2015-01-14T12:31:29Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I seriously doubt that, since “hi use” isn’t a word or phrase in the English language. > > Why would “homicide” auto-correct to that? You think he’s lying? Autocorrect makes some weird choices based on past patterns. In fact my ipad routinely changes “good” into “food”. Good isn’t even spelled wrong! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664/180 "2015-01-14T12:53:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why does the additional evidence that supports the witnesses’ testimony not count as corroboration? Why does the sun rising in the west not count as corroboration? If there were additional evidence that supported their testimony, it would not be uncorroborated, and therefore it would be irrelevant to my claims. I am not, and have never been, talking about evidence that is not uncorroborated, and I wish you’d stop going on about it. You believe the evidence in that case was corroborated, I believe otherwise. This thread is about whether juries should base convictions on uncorroborated testimony. If you do not believe that happened in the Dunn case, stop talking about it. Either explain why Dunn should have been convicted despite the uncorroborated evidence, or talk about a case where you actually believe they were convicted based on uncorroborated evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-witness-testimony-be-disregarded-if-it-conflicts-with-self-defense-claim-for-a-murder-trial/709664.md?page=10)