# Should women abort a clearly defective fetus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273 "2014-08-10T23:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/41 "2014-08-12T04:50:22Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > . . . In short, if we think this decision ought to be made on the basis of utilitarian concerns about welfare of society as a whole, it is not rational to leave the decision to the pregnant woman. Conversely, if we hold that the decision is properly one for the woman, isn’t the implication of our position that the proper criteria are the personal and intimate criteria that will undoubtedly dominate her decision-making process? Well…no… Lots of things we do as individuals have larger implications. Some of these things have so much influence on others that we regulate it by law. But some of these things are not regulated, as we have a philosophical notion that they ought to be free. Just as an example, you might start a new religion tomorrow, that will be as successful as the Mormon faith, and which will have an enormous impact on our society. We don’t have laws regulating that; you’re totally free. We, as a society, have made the same decision regarding having babies. We don’t have quotas or limits, and we don’t make rules. We license the driving of automobiles. We license dogs and cats. But we don’t license babies. You need to get a community building permit to put a new bathroom in your house…but you can have fifteen babies without any interference whatever. Funny, but it’s a tradition now, and you’ll never find the votes to change it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/42 "2014-08-12T05:27:34Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > In short, if we think this decision ought to be made on the basis of utilitarian concerns about welfare of society as a whole, it is not rational to leave the decision to the pregnant woman. It is, because history shows what happens when it _isn’t._ Judging from history, as subjective and emotionally involved as her decision making is going to be it’ll still be a lot better than that of some eugenics committee. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/43 "2014-08-12T05:30:52Z")
It’s not just tradition. There’s more than inertia at work here, as you’ll discover if you sponsor a law to remove abortion choice from women, or to impose a Chinese-style one-child policy. There’s a large constituency out there who are absolutely committed to the notion that personal autonomy in these matters is absolutely right and necessary, and that a just society should defend and vindicate this personal freedom. And I don’t disagree with any of that. My point is that there is a tension between endorsing that position, on the one hand, and holding that the wider social impact of having a disabled child (or indeed of having a child at all) is a factor which should weigh heavily in a decision about childbearing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/44 "2014-08-12T06:20:46Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > No one can predict the future. Its silly to say all humans must be preserved by the mere possibility of being great. There are more scoundrels in the world than visionaries, you play the odds We’re not talking about “scoundrels”, we’re talking about birth defects. The disabled are not morally corrupt due to physical defects. You say it’s silly to say all humans must be preserved - never mind _no one_ has said that here - but I say it’s pernicious to say everyone less than perfect should be eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/45 "2014-08-12T09:26:37Z")
> [@EndlessEntropy](#): > > Sorry, I see. > > Well I think they should because of the cost in raising a child with severe disabilities including the mental and emotional costs of such an undertaking, particularly the strain on parents if there are other children\. If she wants a child, why not adopt a healthy one? Because there aren’t that many, among other reasons. A lot of the children who are up for adoption are “defective” in some way (medical or psychological problems, real or imaginary - many people will not adopt an older child for fear of a damage which may not even be there), what are we supposed to do with them? For some defects, such as DS, the probability increases with the mother’s age, so she may already have kids. Very often, a woman who is told the kid she’s expecting will have DS was not in the situation of “seeking a child” but of “oops”. But whether the fetus was the product of an oops, of gangrape or of months or years of medical procedures, whether to keep it or not should still be something which she decides, with the assistance and support of her partner(s) if she has any. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Even as a rhetorical device, accusations of lying are prohibited in this forum. > > Do not do this again. > > /Moderating See what happens when you joke in GD, **Skald**? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/46 "2014-08-12T11:34:41Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > For some defects, such as DS, the probability increases with the mother’s age, so she may already have kids. Very often, a woman who is told the kid she’s expecting will have DS was not in the situation of “seeking a child” but of “oops”. But whether the fetus was the product of an oops, of gangrape or of months or years of medical procedures, whether to keep it or not should still be something which she decides, with the assistance and support of her partner(s) if she has any. OK, this is something you usually hear, and needs to be pointed out. The probability increases, but most people with DS (and I assume, most fetuses with DS) are found in [women under 35](http://www.ndss.org/Down-Syndrome/Down-Syndrome-Facts/). Fertility rates play a large part in that. So in most cases those kids are the first-born, or the ones who are sought after, not a late “Oops!”. In my limited experience, the DS kids were the first-born. In my cousin’s case, her two younger kids, including one born when she was 35 or after, are the ones without birth defects. The two oldest, born when she was under 30 and at prime fertility, were the ones with birth defects. And as I mentioned before, unless you knew the background, you couldn’t tell, just by looking, that one of them has any defect at all. Completely normal annoyingly teen. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/47 "2014-08-12T14:43:41Z")
My mom told me her obstetrician thought I had Down Syndrome before I was born. I don’t know if I had a false positive on the test, or if they assumed based on ultrasound images, or what. It was 1984, so I’m not sure how refined the testing was in those days. While I’m obviously glad I wasn’t aborted, I don’t have any problem with women who choose to do so. I might even choose to do that myself, if I’m ever put in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/48 "2014-08-12T15:17:14Z")
What if insurance companies or states decided they were not willing to foot the bill to care for deformities that were detected before birth. Would that be constitutional? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/49 "2014-08-12T15:29:04Z")
That was actually tried. Insurance companies decided birth defects were “pre-existing conditions” and declared they weren’t covered. The law was changed. Now they have to. So the answer is no, that would not be allowed. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/50 "2014-08-12T16:07:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > We’re not talking about “scoundrels”, we’re talking about birth defects. The disabled are not morally corrupt due to physical defects. You say it’s silly to say all humans must be preserved - never mind _no one_ has said that here - but I say it’s pernicious to say everyone less than perfect should be eliminated. I think you should respond instead to robert\_columbia’s analogy if that’s the issue you have with it. He conflates his lack of empathy for aborting a fetus with an illness to the possible benefits we might see as a society. Its a specious reasoning because there is no link whatsoever since no one can tell who a fetus would become. You’re just as likely aborting Hitler than Hawking. No one should ever make the stupid argument that you might accidentally abort the next Beethoven. Judge the fetus for what it is at that time. If you don’t want one with a birth defect, then by all means, abort it. I’m fine if people abort for any reason, women shouldn’t have to justify it to anyone ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/51 "2014-08-13T03:01:34Z")
I’m fine with that as well. It’s when we start saying that people SHOULD or should NOT do so that I draw the line. > [@Trinopus](#): > > We, as a society, have made the same decision regarding having babies. We don’t have quotas or limits, and we don’t make rules. We license the driving of automobiles. We license dogs and cats. But we don’t license babies. > > You need to get a community building permit to put a new bathroom in your house…but you can have fifteen babies without any interference whatever. Yeah, because trying to regulate how people breed worked out soooo well in the past. I suppose it has a lot to do with the fact that I have epilepsy – which was one of the conditions that was targeted by eugenics. Now, I’m not saying people shouldn’t choose to abort a child if they know it would be an epileptic. But the idea of encouraging it – or worse, that epileptics should be discouraged from having children, that disturbs me. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/52 "2014-08-13T03:37:38Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > . . . Yeah, because trying to regulate how people breed worked out soooo well in the past. . . . Well, of course, I am not advocating anything of that nature. I just wanted to make clear you aren’t rebutting me, because I actually agree with you! ---
**Author:** ![butterfiles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@butterfiles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butterfiles)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/53 "2014-08-13T05:40:30Z")
Socially acceptable: Legal, yes. Compassionate understanding, yes. Encouraged or coerced, even socially, no. Required: Absolutely not. Society needs to suck it up & we’ll get along just fine even with people with genetic illnesses and other problems (accidents, etc.). > [@EndlessEntropy](#): > > With the progression of medical technology and prenatal screening, the health of a developing fetus can be determined more significantly and viewed for disorders or issues. With these facts in mind, should it be socially acceptable or required for clearly defective fetuses to be terminated for the greater good of society such as if a fetus is diagnosed with Down syndrome? A 2004 study found that approximately 13% of women reported an abortion for reason of fetus problems [http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![butterfiles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@butterfiles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butterfiles)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/54 "2014-08-13T05:43:25Z")
Without ignoring the very real problems or challenges that come with disabilities (mine & others I know), I agree with what you said & love how you stated it. > [@susan](#): > > I’ve got a family member who would have been aborted by these criteria. That would have deprived the world of an extremely prosocial and kind genius. I support the parent(s)’ choice in these matters, but challenge the idea that serious disabilities automatically translate to a net negative experience for the family or society. ---
**Author:** ![butterfiles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@butterfiles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butterfiles)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/55 "2014-08-13T05:46:40Z")
Affects others > [@zpg zealot](#): > > there is a danger in every single social more, law, custom, etc., going bad. I’ve certainly seen far too much damage done by unwise reproduction to consider the situation only the problem of the pregnant woman. Nor, does our current larger, legal culture act in that manner. Many people haves no problem assigning the financial and social cost of carrying irresponsible pregnancies to term to others. Society is interelated. What we do effects others and it behooves people to consider those effects when making decisions. Ideally, social pressure to do the right thing is better than having to legally enforce certain concepts. However, i also cannot forget that no matter how hard the abolitionist movement worked to persuade slave owners to free those they had kept in chattel bondage, emancipation came on the end of union bayonets. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/56 "2014-08-13T21:11:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Agreed, and further, **we should not force anyone to continue a pregnancy if they wish to end it, at any time, and for any reason**. > > It shouldn’t need to be said, but please note that ending a pregnancy is not necessarily synonymous with killing the fetus/baby. bolded for emphasis. I disagree with the bolded portion of your statement. I think we can and should force women who have healthy pregnancies to carry their baby to term if they are in their third trimester (and perhaps beven before that). ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/57 "2014-08-13T23:42:23Z")
I’m going to rule that last post a separate - and maybe necessary - topic. I’d encourage y’all to continue it in a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/58 "2014-08-14T01:02:30Z")
The women and men posting on the site linked below wanted their babies but chose to abort because of severe defects: > **[A Heartbreaking Choice](http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/)** > > A Heartbreaking Choice - for parents who have interrupted a wanted pregnancy after poor prenatal diagnosis. The key word is “choice.” ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/59 "2014-08-14T01:06:44Z")
> [@EndlessEntropy](#): > > With the progression of medical technology and prenatal screening, the health of a developing fetus can be determined more significantly and viewed for disorders or issues. With these facts in mind, should it be socially acceptable or required for clearly defective fetuses to be terminated for the greater good of society such as if a fetus is diagnosed with Down syndrome? A 2004 study found that approximately 13% of women reported an abortion for reason of fetus problems [http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf). Have you ever known any one with Down’s syndrome? I would assume you haven’t. My sister has Down’s and is the sweetest person on earth. I am sure you are much more defective than she is. Abort yourself retroactively. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/60 "2014-08-14T01:09:48Z")
> [@DingoelGringo](#): > > Have you ever known any one with Down’s syndrome? I would assume you haven’t. My sister has Down’s and is the sweetest person on earth. I am sure you are much more defective than she is. Abort yourself retroactively. That one’s worth a warning. DingoelGringo, regardless of circumstance, you may not directly insult another poster on the SDMB. Don’t do it again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273.md?page=4)