# Should women abort a clearly defective fetus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273 "2014-08-10T23:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/101 "2014-09-04T03:11:19Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Why? What did you want an explanation for? I thought I’d already laid out the reasoning for every one of my statements. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/102 "2014-09-04T03:18:13Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > What did you want an explanation for? I thought I’d already laid out the reasoning for every one of my statements. No, you said it was the “next logical step” and that it was the only argument, but didn’t actually put forward an argument for it. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/103 "2014-09-04T04:18:59Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > No, you said it was the “next logical step” and that it was the only argument, but didn’t actually put forward an argument for it. I thought I did, but perhaps the argument was not to your satisfaction, so let me rephrase it. I did not say the ‘next logical step’ was the only argument. I said the only argument for requiring abortion of a defective foetus would be if healthcare is socialised and the public has to pay for it. And it’s a good argument. When healthcare costs are socialised, healthcare decisions are too. In the case of a defective foetus, that decision _may_ be abortion. There are also strong arguments against letting the decision be public though. For me, the strongest one is that it limits choice. For you, it may be that it is a woman’s body, and thus her decision. I saw a neat way to avoid this clash(hence ‘next logical step’), which satisfies both opposing sets of objections. There may be other, different objections, which I welcome, and hence asked for ‘thoughts’. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/104 "2014-09-04T04:37:20Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > When healthcare costs are socialised, healthcare decisions are too. Why? You’re making a leap that does not necessarily follow. It’s not an argument; it’s an assertion. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/105 "2014-09-04T05:02:01Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > When healthcare costs are socialised, healthcare decisions are too. They certainly are not. In the real-world socialised healthcare system that I enjoy, I can decline any treatment offered to me. Including an abortion. My choice, not the system’s. Oh, and the objection to your proposal in post #95 is obvious. It’s iniquitous to suggest that, because person A failed to make the choice you wish they had made, you will withold necessary medical treatment from person B. You could make some kind of a case for withholding treatment from person A, but none at all as regards person B. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/106 "2014-09-04T05:22:52Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Why? You’re making a leap that does not necessarily follow. It’s not an argument; it’s an assertion. No, that part is a fact. Healthcare policy decisions are taken at the government level if the government pays for healthcare. Rationing of healthcare - deciding what drugs, operations etc are to be paid for and when - is a key component of practically all socialised healthcare, and it needs to be. The _argument_ is that one of those decisions would be to abort a defective foetus based on cost considerations. It’s quite possible that no one would actually make that argument. But what I’m saying is that is the only basis on which such an argument could be made. > [@UDS](#): > > They certainly are not. In the real-world socialised healthcare system that I enjoy, I can decline any treatment offered to me. Including an abortion. My choice, not the system’s. Could you tell me which system you speak of? I am doubtful that at least some healthcare decisions are not impacted by government. > [@](#): > > Oh, and the objection to your proposal in post #95 is obvious. It’s iniquitous to suggest that, because person A failed to make the choice you wish they had made, you will withold necessary medical treatment from person B. You could make some kind of a case for withholding treatment from person A, but none at all as regards person B. Not quite as clear cut as you make it out to be, but a valid objection, I’ll think about it further when I get out of work and respond. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/107 "2014-09-04T05:31:52Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Could you tell me which system you speak of? I am doubtful that at least some healthcare decisions are not impacted by government. I have lived in Ireland, and I’m currently living in Australia. Of course some healthcare decisions are impacted by government. But the government does not decide that I must have a treatment that I do not want to have. I am free to decline a treatment offered. And if you know of a socialised healthcare system where this is not generally the case, now would be a good time to name it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/108 "2014-09-04T05:32:29Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > . . . Could you tell me which system you speak of? I am doubtful that at least some healthcare decisions are not impacted by government. . . . There is an enormous amount of space between “No health care decisions are impacted by government” and “the government compels abortions.” The former is obviously not true: the government has a huge role in funding medical research, providing financing for hospital construction, and subsidizing the education of doctors. The latter, however, is also completely untrue…in the western democracies. Red China may compel abortions, but Canada, Australia, Britain, Japan (etc.) absolutely do not. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/109 "2014-09-04T05:37:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > There is an enormous amount of space between “No health care decisions are impacted by government” and “the government compels abortions.” > > The former is obviously not true: the government has a huge role in funding medical research, providing financing for hospital construction, and subsidizing the education of doctors. > > The latter, however, is also completely untrue…in the western democracies. Red China may compel abortions, but Canada, Australia, Britain, Japan (etc.) absolutely do not. I agree with you. As I noted before, I’m saying the only _basis_ for an argument to compel abortion of defective foetuses would be that government is paying for healthcare. I was not trying to say that such an action would happen. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/110 "2014-09-04T05:48:52Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > I have lived in Ireland, and I’m currently living in Australia. > > Of course some healthcare decisions are impacted by government. But the government does not decide that I must have a treatment that I do not want to have. I am free to decline a treatment offered. And if you know of a socialised healthcare system where this is not generally the case, now would be a good time to name it. Ireland eh? Where you may not have an abortion even if it is essential to save your life? Government quite clearly has a large impact on what treatments you may or may not have. Anyway I am not advocating the idea of a forced abortion of a defective foetus. I’m saying that the only _basis_ for making such an argument would be excessive healthcare costs of the resultant human being. As my original post said, there are strong arguments to be made against forced abortion. The neatest solution to my mind was to suggest abortion and ration healthcare if that suggestion is not accepted. Your ‘separate individuals’ argument I will respond to. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/111 "2014-09-04T07:48:53Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > The neatest solution to my mind was to suggest abortion and ration healthcare if that suggestion is not accepted. Ration healthcare to whom? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/112 "2014-09-04T07:52:45Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Ration healthcare to whom? [To the child with DS.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17697094&postcount=95) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/113 "2014-09-04T07:55:45Z")
Talk about the child paying for the sins of the parents, uh? Should we also stop providing healthcare to people who have been in accidents while under the age of majority? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/114 "2014-09-04T08:27:19Z")
Well, in fairness, before we get carried away on a tide of righteous indignation we should acknowled that, the moral issue having been pointed out, bldysabba has gone off to think this through a bit further. They threw this out as a suggestion for reflection, not as a policy they were advocating for. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273/115 "2014-09-04T20:36:21Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I agree with you. As I noted before, I’m saying the only _basis_ for an argument to compel abortion of defective foetuses would be that government is paying for healthcare. I was not trying to say that such an action would happen. Ah! Got ya. I missed the conditional nature of your point. My fault, and my apologies. Yes, most definitely, there could, all too easily, be government regulators who would reason on the basis of costs, even to such an extreme conclusion. > [@bldysabba](#): > > Ireland eh? Where you may not have an abortion even if it is essential to save your life? Government quite clearly has a large impact on what treatments you may or may not have. . . . Also a very good counter-example, which refutes my defense of the western democracies. I have to change it to “Most of the western democracies…” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-abort-a-clearly-defective-fetus/695273.md?page=5)