# Should women be drafted into combat units (USA) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455 "2014-02-16T02:25:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/41 "2014-02-16T03:57:48Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > there is a difference between your wife daughter or girl friend wanting to be a fighter pilot and not being allowed to be one and being forced to be a fighter pilot. i dont think the public will accept the idea. i could be wrong but i think it is too big a stretch. i think it will be a case where ideals break down in the face of reality. The public isn’t going to accept ANYONE being drafted. There hasn’t been a freaking draft since Vietnam and there is about zero chance there will be another one, so you are quibbling about a moot point. I figure you are doing so because it IS a moot point, and one that’s unlikely in the extreme to ever be put to the test. There will be no more drafts of anyone in the US because the public doesn’t want a draft, and because the military doesn’t want a draft…no one wants it. However, it would be hard to talk about this subject from the perspective of reality, since women are already making inroads into combat positions in the military…and, as noted, several hundred of them have died in the line of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan without any heads exploding over it. How are you doing on that cite I asked you for about the military recently changing their stance? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/42 "2014-02-16T03:59:21Z")
For a person, a group of people, or a political movement to aim to be perceived as not hypocritical in every step they take is absolutely unrealistic. And subjective. Personally if feminist groups did fight to be included in the draft, I’d be annoyed and think they were being hypocritical compared to other goals and philosophies I think the movement espouses. These movements are way too nuanced and complex to pick a single issue and decided what’s hypocritical and what’s not. The goal should be to ask if the action is consistent with their message and expressed goals. There is no contradiction in the message of the feminist movement to _not_ peruse draft equality, especially at this time when there is no draft in place! > [@Robert163](#): > > you do realize the cubs have never won the world series in over 100 don’t you? What the hell are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/43 "2014-02-16T03:59:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, if you say so it must true. :rolleyes: > > Did you read that somewhere on the internet or did you make that up all by yourself? if my assertion is that feminsts don’t speak out against examples of men being discriminated against, i cant very well provide you with examples, can i??? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/44 "2014-02-16T04:03:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The public isn’t going to accept ANYONE being drafted. There hasn’t been a freaking draft since Vietnam and there is about zero chance there will be another one, so you are quibbling about a moot point. > > I figure you are doing so because it IS a moot point, and one that’s unlikely in the extreme to ever be put to the test. There will be no more drafts of anyone in the US because the public doesn’t want a draft, and because the military doesn’t want a draft…no one wants it. However, it would be hard to talk about this subject from the perspective of reality, since women are already making inroads into combat positions in the military…and, as noted, several hundred of them have died in the line of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan without any heads exploding over it. > > How are you doing on that cite I asked you for about the military recently changing their stance? 1- Are you really unaware that congress changed their ruling on women in combat units? 2- I’m interested in ow feminsts and other people. like you i guess, respond to the topic. whether or not the draft is actually enacted is not the point of my question. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/45 "2014-02-16T04:04:50Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > if my assertion is that feminsts don’t speak out against examples of men being discriminated against, i cant very well provide you with examples, can i??? Why should they? In all seriousness, why? Men hold the majority of power in every governing body and virtually every public and private business enterprise. Men can fix whatever issues they have, just fine. If men are being discriminated against, they can call up the ACLU to help them out. The feminists are busy fighting battles against discrimination against women. > [@Robert163](#): > > 2- I’m interested in ow feminsts and other people. like you i guess, respond to the topic. whether or not the draft is actually enacted is not the point of my question. You said upthread you wanted to deal with reality. The reality is that this is a nonissue. There are way too many real issues hurting women today that need attention to waste time on this in order to pacify anti-feminist men who think women aren’t doing enough to help them. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/46 "2014-02-16T04:07:04Z")
[QUOTE=Robert163] 1- Are you really unaware that congress changed their ruling on women in combat units? [/QUOTE] Yes…thus my request for a cite. Please provide to fight my ignorance. > [@](#): > > 2- I’m interested in ow feminsts and other people. like you i guess, respond to the topic. whether or not the draft is actually enacted is not the point of my question. Why? IT’S A MOOT POINT AS THERE IS NO FUCKING DRAFT. How hard is that to understand? No one is going to fight for women to be drafted because THERE ISN’T A FUCKING DRAFT. The public, including ‘feminsts’ don’t want ANYONE TO BE DRAFTED, WHICH IS WHY THERE IS NOT FUCKING DRAFT. I guess I could come up with a half a dozen more ways to say it, but let me just reiterate…THERE IS NO FUCKING DRAFT. Which part of that don’t you get? I’m asking in all seriousness because to me it doesn’t seem very complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/47 "2014-02-16T04:07:57Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > For a person, a group of people, or a political movement to aim to be perceived as not hypocritical in every step they take is absolutely unrealistic. And subjective. > > Personally if feminist groups did fight to be included in the draft, I’d be annoyed and think they were being hypocritical compared to other goals and philosophies I think the movement espouses. These movements are way too nuanced and complex to pick a single issue and decided what’s hypocritical and what’s not. > > The goal should be to ask if the action is consistent with their message and expressed goals. There is no contradiction in the message of the feminist movement to _not_ peruse draft equality, especially at this time when there is no draft in place! > > What the hell are you talking about? how is it hypocritical for a group of people to campaign that they are not being included in some category, a dangerous one, then be granted access, but say oh wait, we only want to do it if we want to? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/48 "2014-02-16T04:09:01Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yes…thus my request for a cite. Please provide to fight my ignorance. > > Why? IT’S A MOOT POINT AS THERE IS NO FUCKING DRAFT. How hard is that to understand? No one is going to fight for women to be drafted because THERE ISN’T A FUCKING DRAFT. The public, including ‘feminsts’ don’t want ANYONE TO BE DRAFTED, WHICH IS WHY THERE IS NOT FUCKING DRAFT. > > I guess I could come up with a half a dozen more ways to say it, but let me just reiterate…THERE IS NO FUCKING DRAFT. Which part of that don’t you get? I’m asking in all seriousness because to me it doesn’t seem very complicated. so, you have no problem with them being ELIGIBLE FOR THE FVCKING DRAFT, right? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/49 "2014-02-16T04:09:20Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > how is it hypocritical for a group of people to campaign that they are not being included in some category, a dangerous one, then be granted access, but say oh wait, we only want to do it if we want to? Show me that’s happened. Classic strawman argument. Has someone put forth legislation to include women in the draft that women are fighting against? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/50 "2014-02-16T04:10:39Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I am a feminist and even if you limited yourself to the options of “men are drafted” and “men and women are drafted”, I still refuse to support the latter. I do not support the expansion of a morally abhorrent policy just to give it a veneer of “fairness”. Eh, that’s a pretty facile argument. If the government is going to draft X number of people there is no reason to say that all of that X should be men. It’s not like drafting women is going to increase X. So, you save (roughly) X/2 women from being drafted but you cause X/2 more men to be drafter. In my book, people are people. Drafting X men is no different from drafting X men and women. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/51 "2014-02-16T04:11:28Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Show me that’s happened. Classic strawman argument. > > Has someone put forth legislation to include women in the draft that women are fighting against? its a new development, like within weeks or months, the status of the draft situation is still being debated. if you don’t want to talk about the issue, ok, but it makes me wonder why you work so hard to evade the point if your response is sound. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/52 "2014-02-16T04:12:51Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > if my assertion is that feminsts don’t speak out against examples of men being discriminated against, i cant very well provide you with examples, can i??? The you should make that assertion in the first place. If it’s not supportable, then it’s just your opinion. We have another forum for opinions, too. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/53 "2014-02-16T04:13:44Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > so, you have no problem with them being ELIGIBLE FOR THE FVCKING DRAFT, right? I have a problem with ANYONE, be they male, female or canine being drafted. Again, how hard is that to understand? It’s in my very first post…the draft sucks. No one wants it…not the general public, not the ‘feminst’, not the politicians, no one. The only people in my experience who fret about the draft are usually anti-war lefties during presidential elections when we are off on some international adventure…and you, of course, who are cleverly trying to make points on ‘feminst’ for supposed hypocrisy. It’s not working btw…just a heads up. How’s it going on getting that cite? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/54 "2014-02-16T04:14:09Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > its a new development, like within weeks or months, the status of the draft situation is still being debated. if you don’t want to talk about the issue, ok, but it makes me wonder why you work so hard to evade the point if your response is sound. I have no idea what you’re talking about. I have explained every which way I can why I do not think it’s hypocritical for feminists to not fight to be included in the draft. I am familiar with no legislation that is on the table to include women in the draft. If there is such legislation, then educate me. However, as I’ve said already, even if there was, I do not think it’s hypocritical to not fight for it, for the reasons I’ve enumerated in each of my posts. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/55 "2014-02-16T04:15:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > How are you doing on that cite I asked you for about the military recently changing their stance? > **[Pentagon says women in all combat units by 2016 | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2013/06/18/politics/women-combat/)** > > The Pentagon unveils plans for fully integrating women into front-line and special combat roles, including elite forces such as Army Rangers and Navy SEALs. > **[Army describes plans for integrating women into combat](https://www.army.mil/article/105814/)** > > No later than Jan. 1, 2016, women will be able to apply to all military occupational specialties, and to all Army units, across the total force. > **[Women in combat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_combat#United_States)** > > Women in combat refers to female military personnel assigned to combat positions. The role of women in the military has varied across the world’s major countries throughout history with several views for and against women in combat. Over time countries have generally become more accepting of women fulfilling combat roles. > Women have fought in combat roles in different societies throughout history. > In Ancient History, a significant number of women in Scythian and Sarmatian societies participated... ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/56 "2014-02-16T04:16:52Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/18/politics/women-combat/](http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/18/politics/women-combat/) > [Army describes plans for integrating women into combat | Article | The United States Army](http://www.army.mil/article/105814/) > [Women in combat - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_combat#United_States) Um…Robert? You realize those articles don’t show any recent change in the military’s position on the question of expanding women in combat roles in the US, right? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/57 "2014-02-16T04:16:59Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/18/politics/women-combat/](http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/18/politics/women-combat/) > [Army describes plans for integrating women into combat | Article | The United States Army](http://www.army.mil/article/105814/) > [Women in combat - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_combat#United_States) None of those have anything to do about legislation to include women in the draft, (that feminists are ignoring and being all hypocritical about). ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/58 "2014-02-16T04:18:19Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I have no idea what you’re talking about. > > I have explained every which way I can why I do not think it’s hypocritical for feminists to not fight to be included in the draft. > > I am familiar with no legislation that is on the table to include women in the draft. If there is such legislation, then educate me. > > However, as I’ve said already, even if there was, I do not think it’s hypocritical to not fight for it, for the reasons I’ve enumerated in each of my posts. well then i think your arguments are non nonsensical. failure to argue against something fairly applied that they may not want, is not mitigated by the fact that they have a long list of legitimate concerns to argue against. does not logic and standards have to be applied consistently to be correctly applied? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/59 "2014-02-16T04:19:57Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Um…Robert? You realize those articles don’t show any recent change in the military’s position on the question of expanding women in combat roles in the US, right? On January 24, 2014 the US Army announced that 33,000 positions that were previously closed to women would integrate in the upcoming month of April,[20] though it still has yet to be determined if and when women may join the US Army’s Special Operations community. -wikipedia ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/60 "2014-02-16T04:22:56Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > well then i think your arguments are non nonsensical. not arguing against something fairly applied that they may not want is not mitigated by the fact that they have a long list of legitimate concerns to argue against. does not logic and standards have to be applied consistently to be correctly applied? You have to look at the mission of the movement to decide if it’s being logical and consistent. The movement is working towards it’s stated goals and priorities and is focusing on those priorities with limited resources and time. It is not hypocritical to not fight for something that is a hypothetical nonissue. It is not hypocritical to not fight for something that is against their own best interests. It is not hypocritical to not fight for something that would detract from significant and important issues and would waste precious resources. It is not hypocritical to not fight for something that has plenty of other groups who could take up the fight more appropriately (legislators, ACLU, Veterans groups). And it is not hypocritical to not fight for something that is not part of the mission of that group. > [@Robert163](#): > > On January 24, 2014 the US Army announced that 33,000 positions that were previously closed to women would integrate in the upcoming month of April,[20] though it still has yet to be determined if and when women may join the US Army’s Special Operations community. > > -wikipedia Still not about legislation for expanding the draft. That was a strawman, wasn’t it. Go ahead, we already know. You can admit it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455.md?page=4)