# Should women be drafted into combat units (USA) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455 "2014-02-16T02:25:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/161 "2014-02-18T20:54:26Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I know a tough-as-nails butch 140 pound 19 year old woman, with muscles like this, but she doesn’t have a penis. She’s an instructor at my daughter’s ballet group. > > I know a genial 75 year old man, who has trouble standing and has to use a catheter to pee. He’s had one hip replaced, has open lesions on his feet, shingles, is practically stone deaf, and just had surgery for skin cancer, but he has a penis. He’s my dad. > > Which one do you think would win in a bare-knuckles fight to the death? Your dad, of course. The ballet instructor would go easy on an old man, but then he’d sucker punch her. Possibly with his penis. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/162 "2014-02-18T21:31:08Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But that’s not how it works. You have 100 males in your pool, and he has 200 males and females. Just as many males would be subject to the draft, but now he’s added the other half of the population, so the pool is twice as big. > > He may take longer to winnow down the best, but he’s got a larger talent pool so the winnowing may end up with a better result. I disagree. There’s no shortage (well, at least in US History there hasn’t been) of men to fill the available positions needed by the army. So the draft board is tasked with raising 75 new, qualified troops. Knowing that some people you call up will be unable to serve, what is your next task in selecting a pool of candidates from the general population? At least my next step would be to call from the pool of people most likely to be suitable for combat. So old people are out. Sure, there might be the rare 75 year old who can serve, but I know that I’ll be eliminating 99/100 elderly people. So I set an upper age limit where it is cost effective to start sorting. Currently that is age 26. And I keep going down the line looking for combat troop characteristics. Being male is another one of those “not always but a good indicator” classifications to keep my pool manageable. I think your argument is that in my former scenario, while I might come up with 75/100 qualified troops, **RNATB** would be able to get a better 75/200 troops because he could find qualified women who would replace my weakest men making his 75 selection an overall better class of recruits. I would suggest that his class is only slightly better at the edges, maybe getting 5 to 10 marginally better soldiers. And in order to do that, he had to sift through 100 extra bodies. Now multiply that to raise an army of over 1 million and you can see the logistical problem. Also, it’s not clear that these marginally better women would add much to the fighting strength of a slightly worse male soldier. IOW, if male recruit nos 70-75 were such poor soldiers that they were dragging down the rest of the unit, there may be an argument that replacing them with the female recruits nos 1-5 would be a beneficial result. There is no evidence to suggest that the bottom male soldier brings down the rest of his unit in that way. Drafting women would seem like a massive expansion of the draft both in administrative cost and in uprooting of lives for no promise of any better battlefield result. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/163 "2014-02-18T21:47:26Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Am I unfair for asking about your actual combat experience? Still waiting to hear the thrilling details. > > Most of my (male) relatives who served were in the Air Force (or the Army Air Force). They weren’t foot sloggers. You’re being non sensical. If i said women weren’t strong enough to play in the NFL, it would do you no good to ask me if I had played in the NFL. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/164 "2014-02-19T00:15:34Z")
I would if you went into detail about why you think so and we had some NFL players posting in the thread and disagreeing with you. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/165 "2014-02-19T00:29:49Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > It’s odd that so many posters seem to think that military conscription was/would be for combat positions only. The military also needs personnel in many occupational specialties. True enough, but then the Women In The Military debate has never really been about pushing paper or smoking bowls in the motor pool. For one thing I expect everybody is clear on the notion that women can push paper with the best of 'em, for another women themselves would be (and were AFAIK) justifiably pissed were they told that they can be in the military just as long as their contribution was limited to fetching military coffees and not worrying their pretty little heads about combat. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/166 "2014-02-19T00:31:40Z")
That’s a hell of a middle you’re excluding there… ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/167 "2014-02-19T01:13:38Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I disagree. There’s no shortage (well, at least in US History there hasn’t been) of men to fill the available positions needed by the army. So the draft board is tasked with raising 75 new, qualified troops. Knowing that some people you call up will be unable to serve, what is your next task in selecting a pool of candidates from the general population? I know! Lets just draft blacks. Everyone knows they’re stronger and more fit and athletic. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/168 "2014-02-19T02:55:04Z")
> [@andros](#): > > That’s a hell of a middle you’re excluding there… What middle ? Either women with given aptitudes can file for the same MOSs as men with the same aptitudes should they wish it, including combat specialties ; or it’s a paternalistic crock of shit. Rather binary. “You can be in the military, but not a _grunt_. It’s cool, there’s plenty of non-combat positions for you !”, how is that not equal to “don’t worry your pretty little head about fighting, love” ? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/169 "2014-02-19T04:26:30Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > What middle ? Nah, sorry, with you. Misread the post. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/170 "2014-02-19T08:03:47Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > We’d probably be better informed by looking at other nations that draft women, such as Israel. Everyone, male or female, does time in the Army there. Doesn’t seem to be a problem. Serving in Israel is mandatory, but serving in combat units is more or less voluntary. New recruits are asked where they’d prefer to serve, and if they don’t put a combat position in one of their top three choices, they will hardly ever be sent to a combat unit. They may write infantry and get sent to the artillery corps (because no-one ever \*wants \*to go to artillery), but a combat unit is a combat unit. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/171 "2014-02-19T14:41:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Serving in Israel is mandatory, but serving in combat units is more or less voluntary. New recruits are asked where they’d prefer to serve, and if they don’t put a combat position in one of their top three choices, they will hardly ever be sent to a combat unit. They may write infantry and get sent to the artillery corps (because no-one ever \*wants \*to go to artillery), but a combat unit is a combat unit. Thanks. Not sure if that makes a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/172 "2014-02-19T14:52:03Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Really? You’re posting that? Of course. Like it or not, conscription is a fact of life in times of all-out war, and a civic duty. You may not agree with your country’s ideology but you should at least be prepared to defend it in case of invasion. > [@jtgain](#): > > Correct. It’s not a perfect system, but its the easiest one to implement. Let’s say that we are both responsible for finding good soldiers. I have a pool of 100 people, all men ages 18-26. You also have a pool of 100 people, of both sexes age 18-70. > > Of course, I may get some amputees and the like, but I think we can agree that I will find more troops suited for the armed forces in my pool than you will in yours. You _might_ - notwithstanding **lance** ’s point about how my pool is twice the size - but that’s because you’ve artificially skewed the comparison. Why should my group be full of old people? Nobody is arguing about the _age range_ for mandatory draft registration. And you _may_ still find a greater percentage of combat qualified troops in your pool, but your pool isn’t just for finding combat troops. It’s also for finding quartermasters and cooks and clerks. So limiting it to combat-ready personnel is pointless. Beyond that, you don’t draft to replace dead people. You draft to replace people who are being rotated out of service. US conscripts in WWII were limited to 12 months’ service (and later 18). > [@Alessan](#): > > Serving in Israel is mandatory, but serving in combat units is more or less voluntary. New recruits are asked where they’d prefer to serve, and if they don’t put a combat position in one of their top three choices, they will hardly ever be sent to a combat unit. They may write infantry and get sent to the artillery corps (because no-one ever \*wants \*to go to artillery), but a combat unit is a combat unit. Can you guess at the ratio of men to women in combat units (or do you know)? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/173 "2014-02-19T15:05:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Can you guess at the ratio of men to women in combat units (or do you know)? Just 3%, per [this Wiki page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Israel_Defense_Forces#Combat_roles), although the lines between combat and noncombat roles in the IDF are awfully flexible at times. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/174 "2014-02-19T15:08:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > (because no-one ever \*wants \*to go to artillery) I realize this is the most anecdotical of tangents but… seriously ? I’m a cowardly pacifist myself, but I always figured if I ever _had_ to go camo, artillery would be it. King of battle, hands down. You get to play with the biggest fuck-off guns short of a WW2-era battleship, you’re miles away from any dangerous action (and thus don’t get to witness the carnage, sneak plus there) ; rear enough to get the comfort but action-y enough to get some adrenaline flowing ; you’re often bunking with the engineer corps which means outstanding base amenities even in the middle of nowhere since geeks are gonna geek even if it’s just to hammer up a proper latrine ; and if you \*do \*get hit by counter-battery fire it’s bound to be a pretty quick death. Oh, and you get that cool red stripe on your dress pants. It’s like all positive, no negative. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/175 "2014-02-19T15:08:31Z")
FWIW, I met a gal who used to be a Caracal. She was awesome, really cool, super cute…and every time she turned her arm the right way I was reminded she could probably break me in half. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/176 "2014-02-19T16:44:07Z")
I guess I’m an old time feminist. Every time I had the point on patrol… Hell, come to think of it, at every pre-mission briefing, I said to myself “Hey, I can handle a typewriter as well as any woman! Why can’t I get a clerical assignment?” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/177 "2014-02-19T16:47:00Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I guess I’m an old time feminist. Every time I had the point on patrol… Hell, come to think of it, at every pre-mission briefing, I said to myself “Hey, I can handle a typewriter as well as any woman! Why can’t I get a clerical assignment?” Stop bitching and go get me an MRE and my newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455/178 "2014-02-19T16:52:30Z")
I’d feel a lot better about drafting women if the military didn’t provide such a institutional security blanket for raping COs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-drafted-into-combat-units-usa/681455.md?page=8)