# Should women be given special treatment in order to become Rangers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2017, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537 "2017-02-23T10:51:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/182 "2017-03-01T12:16:31Z")
Know what? After this post I’m going to leave this for others to judge. You asked for a general when in fact you know well that was not the point of the debate. The point was the rumors that instructors were being pressured to pass women. By narrowing it down in this manner you created a straw man. Why is the rank so important to the substance of this debate? It isn’t and mere reiteration on your part will not make it so. By insisting that we deal only in proven fact you once again obscure matters. I used the phrase _if true_ advisedly in the OP. You may well have missed that. The debate is ‘if the rumors are true should women really be given special treatment?’. Do you follow now? The truth or otherwise of the accusations is immaterial to the debate. As for Moonie Times the unreliability of that source, and I quite agree it’s not a good one, is irrelevant. It simply established the fact that the rumors were out there. We are clearly talking at cross-purposes here, with you trying to shoot down the sources and with me insisting that the quality of the sources is irrelevant. The fact that this question was raised in the House by a Republican congressman would have been sufficent to ground the debate. I see that I would have been wise to use just that, But, as the poet has it, wherefore waste I words? You will be persuaded by nothing that I write were I to continue till the Greek Kalends. Let us leave it there, with you clothed in your own good opinion and I in mine. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/183 "2017-03-01T12:41:01Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Know what? After this post I’m going to leave this for others to judge. You asked for a general when in fact you know well that was not the point of the debate. The point was the rumors that instructors were being pressured to pass women. By narrowing it down in this manner you created a straw man. Why is the rank so important to the substance of this debate? It isn’t and mere reiteration on your part will not make it so. …what the hell are you talking about? When did I bring up rank? I never bought up rank. I never asked for a “general.” “Top Brass” was the phrase that you chose to use, not me. I quoted you. I never created a strawman. Do you know what a strawman is? > [@](#): > > By insisting that we deal only in proven fact you once again obscure matters. I haven’t insisted on anything. You can deal in whatever you want to deal with. > [@](#): > > I used the phrase _if true_ advisedly in the OP. You may well have missed that. The debate is ‘if the rumors are true should women really be given special treatment?’. Do you follow now? The truth or otherwise of the accusations is immaterial to the debate. I didn’t miss that at all. I stated I doubted the veracity of the cite in the OP, and asked for alternative cites. The alternative cites you provided were worse than the ones in the OP. It is all very well deciding to argue a hypothetical. But you based your hypothetical on a bunch of rumours that most likely aren’t true. According to all the official sources you have cited woman haven’t been given special treatment in order to become Rangers. > [@](#): > > As for Moonie Times the unreliability of that source, and I quite agree it’s not a good one, is irrelevant. It simply established the fact that the rumors were out there. And establishing the fact that only rumours are out there only increase my skepticism of the cite you chose to use in the OP. > [@](#): > > We are clearly talking at cross-purposes here, with you trying to shoot down the sources and with me insisting that the quality of the sources is irrelevant. The fact that this question was raised in the House by a Republican congressman would have been sufficent to ground the debate. I see that I would have been wise to use just that, But you didn’t choose to ground your debate around that. You chose to ground your debate around a bunch of unsubstantiated rumours instead. You claimed in the OP that “This, if true and many sources confirm it including some of the female candidates, isn’t great and could end up getting people killed.” You can’t both state “if true” and “many sources confirm it.” Both can’t be true. Which female candidate “confirmed it?” Do you still think people are going to get killed because of this? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/184 "2017-03-01T12:54:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Quite honestly, I seriously doubt that. “Ranger School is an intense 61-day combat **leadership** course oriented toward small-unit tactics. It has been called “the most physically and mentally demanding **leadership** school the Army has to offer”.” > **[Ranger School](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_School)** > > The Ranger School is a 62-day United States Army small unit tactics and leadership course that develops functional skills directly related to units whose mission is to engage the enemy in close combat and direct fire battles. Ranger training was established in September 1950 at Fort Benning, Georgia (now called Fort Moore). The Ranger course has changed little since its inception. Until recently\[when?\], it was an eight-week course divided into three phases. The course is now 61 days in dura Th... ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/185 "2017-03-01T12:57:51Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That link in the bit you quoted includes a break down for wash outs. A little over half get booted for failing RAP week. I honestly doubt all of them failed the push up portion. Yeah, I misstated. Of the people that fail RPA week, most of them fail because of the pushup portion. Thanks for the correction. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/186 "2017-03-01T13:05:22Z")
Actually, further along they break down RAP week failures. The largest group is fitness test failures but still only about a third, not most. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/187 "2017-03-01T13:15:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > ::shrugs:: > > …what do you think? I don’t know. AFAICT, the infantry veterans I know are all a bit more macho than the average dude and buy into the alpha male thing at least a little bit more than the average dude. A ranger tab commands immediate respect from these guys and even the hint that standards were watered down for women is going to make the tabs less useful for women who get them. The instant credibility that goes with the ranger tab is no longer there. There is going to be an asterisk next to their ranger tab in the eyes of many of these guys. I think that the ranger tabs function as a signaling device loses its effect if things are easier for women in any way. Women are kind of fighting an uphill battle to begin with because of ingrained prejudices within the military, if they get help overcoming those prejudices, then that leveling of the playing field is going to look like special treatment to a lot of these guys. If these guys have a problem because their leader is a woman, then fuck em. Some guys had problems with being led by a black man in Vietnam too. But if their problem is that different standards were applied for one set of leaders over another, its hard to tell them to just shut up and follow this person into live fire combat. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/188 "2017-03-01T13:17:36Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Actually, further along they break down RAP week failures. The largest group is fitness test failures but still only about a third, not most. Are we satisfied that Ranger School is a leadership school (and not a special forces school) or were you taking issue with the notion that it is the primary school for infantry leadership? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/189 "2017-03-01T14:24:36Z")
Yes, that was probably a misunterstanding on my part. I only thought of the “first” definition of primary. I guess it could be considered the “most important” for all I know. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/190 "2017-03-01T18:55:51Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yes, that was probably a misunterstanding on my part. I only thought of the “first” definition of primary. I guess it could be considered the “most important” for all I know. It just seemed to me that a lot of posters were debating on the premise that ranger school was the training course to join the Ranger Battalion. I don’t know why the army uses the term ranger everywhere, it confusing and it turns arguments about women and ranger school into something it isn’t. Once you get past the physical stuff (which AFAICT the women all passed), the rest seems to be a subjective assessment of how well you exercised leadership during training. NOONE wants to water that stuff down just for the sake of providing more avenues for promotion in the military for women, but I don’t really see any reason why women can’t be very effective leaders. Joan of Arc comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/191 "2017-03-01T19:06:46Z")
Let’s try a different phrasing: Should military training courses be re-assessed at intervals, and re-drawn to serve the current needs of the soldiers and the State? Oh! why, in that case, yes, absolutely! ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/192 "2017-03-01T19:28:42Z")
Wasn’t JoA just a figurehead? She was a peasant girl. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/193 "2017-03-01T19:42:40Z")
Damuri, “Ranger” is an almost ancient word in the military for a forward or scouting force/soldier. They probably don’t think of using it more than once any more than they think of using artillery or cavalry more than once. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/194 "2017-03-02T00:06:14Z")
For purposes of argument, would there be an issue of an all-female Ranger regiment? Goose, gander, some assembly required. Why or why not? There are a lot of issues with people working together in close quarters, never mind combat. My experience in the military was, 17 to 25 year old men and women have raging hormones and it is extremely problematic, there is no way around this. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/195 "2017-03-02T00:56:33Z")
17-25 year olds are stupid for a bunch of reasons. Never noticed a homogenous group being particularly smarter than a mixed sex group. Have you, Common Tater? If anything I’ve noticed the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/196 "2017-03-02T04:06:43Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Damuri, “Ranger” is an almost ancient word in the military for a forward or scouting force/soldier. They probably don’t think of using it more than once any more than they think of using artillery or cavalry more than once. If I’m understanding correctly, “ranger” as in “75th Rangers” means forward or scouting force, while “ranger” as in “Ranger School” just means infantry. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/197 "2017-03-03T13:45:25Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > If I’m understanding correctly, “ranger” as in “75th Rangers” means forward or scouting force, while “ranger” as in “Ranger School” just means infantry. Is that correct? Ranger school is a training school for infantry small unit leaders. Almost every Ranger (as in 75th) I know has a Ranger tab. They acquired their tabs AFTER they became Rangers. So while almost all Rangers have ranger tabs not everyone with a ranger tab is a Ranger. The reason it is important is because no one wants to stick some inexperienced lieutenant in charge of a platoon that is going to see real action. But if they have gone to ranger school and have a ranger tab then they have all the leadership experience you can reasonably get without actually leading a group in combat. Its especially useful for women because during time of war, some inexperienced men might be put in charge of a combat unit and gain experience and credibility that way. Women don’t get these sort of opportunities. With a ranger tab, they will, or at least they should. once again, having a ranger tab is not part of the selection process to become a ranger. But almost all Rangers end up getting their ranger tab. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/198 "2017-03-16T22:18:17Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IMO situations like this are the result of political correctness filtering through the process. If you start with the notion that some women can pass, then if no women pass then that proves that you’re biased against women. No one wants that, and it’s a lot easier to rig the system so that some women can pass then to hold to your standards and risk being called a bigot/misogynist. > > And the attitude expressed here by LHOD is a big part of it. He did not invent it himself for this thread - it’s been used in legal challenges in cases involving firefighters and the like. Essentially the way it goes is (roughly) that the relative paucity of women (or minorities) is used to establish that the use of these tests has a disparate impact on women (or minorities). This then puts the burden of proof on whoever administers the tests to proof that the tests are relevant to the job, or else come up with another test that these groups can pass more easily. Again, it’s a lot easier to just give them easier standards and avoid the headache. Another example in the news: [Regents Drop Teacher Literacy Test Seen as Discriminatory](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/13/nyregion/ny-regents-teacher-exams-alst.html?_r=0) > [@](#): > > The Board of Regents on Monday eliminated a requirement that aspiring teachers in New York State pass a literacy test to become certified after the test proved controversial because black and Hispanic candidates passed it at significantly lower rates than white candidates. > [@](#): > > Under the previous chancellor, Merryl H. Tisch, the state created a set of more rigorous licensing exams. Among them was the Academic Literacy Skills Test, or ALST, which was intended to assess reading and analytical writing skills, and the edTPA, which requires candidates to submit a portfolio of work, including unedited videos of them interacting with students. > > The literacy test proved challenging to many prospective teachers, but particularly for black and Hispanic candidates. An analysis done in 2014, the year the test was first administered, found that 64 percent of white candidates passed the test on the first try, while only 46 percent of Hispanic candidates and 41 percent of black candidates did. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/199 "2017-03-16T22:30:07Z")
What exactly is this test supposed to measure, how good a job does it do of measuring what it is supposed to measure, and how do the skills measured relate to what teachers actually do? I don’t know the answers to these (the article didn’t really address them). The fact that the test says “literacy” doesn’t necessarily mean that it is even trying to measure the basic ability to read and write, and certainly not that it is successful at that measurement. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/200 "2017-03-17T01:47:57Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Another example in the news: [Regents Drop Teacher Literacy Test Seen as Discriminatory](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/13/nyregion/ny-regents-teacher-exams-alst.html?_r=0) Please start another thread. This is an entirely different issue. I can make a really good fucking argument that having more black and hispanic teachers in a school system where 60% of the students are black or hispanic can be a really important thing that enhances the educational experience of the students. I can argue in favor of affirmative action for teachers, police, primary care physicians, etc. Its harder to do in cases like firemen, soldier, airplane pilot, truck driver, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Navy\_draftee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ec9cab/32.png) [@Navy\_draftee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navy_draftee)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537/201 "2017-03-17T03:20:22Z")
I was real concerned when the “pc” Sect of Navy was asked what makes our armed forces great and he said…"_Our diversity"_ Amazing ! Boot camp strives to make us all the same yet this dingbat thinks "_diversity"_ is the strongest part of our armed forces ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-given-special-treatment-in-order-to-become-rangers/780537.md?page=11)