# Should women be in direct combat ground brigades or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2002, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-in-direct-combat-ground-brigades-or-not/111883 "2002-06-01T14:10:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-in-direct-combat-ground-brigades-or-not/111883/61 "2002-06-08T05:13:35Z")
[celestina scratchin’ her head] **grienspace** , I hope that Trevor would help the most seriously wounded person first. Isn’t that usually the way it goes in the military, or am I being too optimistic here? I’m not understanding this notion of the military viewing women like they do men. Women are women. You might want to amend that last statement so that it reads something along the lines that the military needs to view women as human beings who share an equal stake in surviving on this planet just like men do and who can be just as motivated and capable of fighting just like men do to survive. It’s a shame that currently they’re having a few problems grasping this simple concept. [sigh] ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-in-direct-combat-ground-brigades-or-not/111883/62 "2002-06-08T05:29:08Z")
I, for one, have no objections per se to women being in combat. If they want to get shot at and possibly die for their country, so be it. However, they have to meet the SAME requirements as the men do. I have not noticed that being a problem in the Air Force, but then again, we don’t carry 80-pound packs on our back all day long while climbing hills, either. I personally know a woman who wanted to be a Pararescue Jumper (the Air Force equivalent of SEALS, Recon Marines, and Army Special Forces) who could have literally beaten up 95% of the men at Keesler AFB while I was there, and she was denied because of her sex. That is patently unfair, in my opinion. I must say, though, that she was the exception rather than the rule. So go for it, I say. But women have to be able to do the pushups, the situps, the running, and everything else the same as men, and further must realize that in a combat situation there will be no time to make sexual distinctions, IAW she has to be “one of the guys”. If that’s the case, then I’m all for it. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-in-direct-combat-ground-brigades-or-not/111883/63 "2002-06-08T20:20:45Z")
(I changed my name from Ottto to clear up some confusion, I hope) > [@](#): > > First off, we don’t fight those “let’s go marching around in the jungle for 8 months killing Charlie” wars anymore folks. Hmmm…You mean like humping around with 90 or so pounds of gear, chasing an elusive enemy in unfamiliar terrain? Nothing like Afghanistan, I guess. > [@](#): > > I spent 42 months of 48 in the field, 18 of those in country at the forward edge of the battle area (FEBA). Out of curiosity, where has America had a 18 months out of 42 in a battle area since Vietnam? If you tell me K-For or I-For, I will be forced to laugh aloud. That is not combat. Even when I was in the Croatian Army, during the civil war, incredibly few units actually spent such a high percentage of time forward deployed, much less in the actual FEBA. > [@](#): > > For those of you who haven’t been in the situation, no offense, but you don’t have a clue what your talking about. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-in-direct-combat-ground-brigades-or-not/111883/64 "2002-06-10T19:55:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*I’ve been in the Army - a co-ed army, BTW, the Canadian Armed Forces… > I have to admit that I have worked with female soldiers, and my honest perception is that on average they were just as good as the average guy. Women ARE weaker than men, on average, but > > 1. Really weak, wimpy women don’t join the frickin’ Army, guys, and > > 2. You do not have to be an Olympic athlete for 99% of Army roles. Quite frankly, any reasonably fit person can do it. And hey, some women are great athletes, so you can find women for those roles too. \*\* While in the US Army, I was assigned to a coed training platoon that that operated as an infantry platoon for many weeks while other training (irrelevant to this thread) was undertaken. [Anecdotes] We had a forced multi-kilometer march (ok, run) with full pack and weapon. We had to finish as a platoon, so several men ended up carrying two packs because several of the women could not complete the run with the group while carrying their own gear. One woman did not even have the physical strength to finish the march carrying her own weapon! We were instructed to, and did, stop training solely to accomodate feminine hygiene requirements. I assigned the M-60 (a heavy automatic rifle) to one of the bigger men in my unit at the start of an extended trip to the field. When one of the women protested my “chauvanistic” decision, the platoon commander (a woman, thank goodness) agreed with my decision and overruled the challenger. Now there’s a discussion that wouldn’t have happened in an all male unit. On the flip side, stories were told of a body-builder female in a near-by unit, who supposedly could hack the full experience. [/Anecdotes] My opinion is that if they can’t finish the forced march with all their gear (male or female), and then, when they are totally exhausted, throw my wounded self over their shoulders and carry me another few hundred yards to a waiting medical evac chopper, they have no business being in a front line unit (again, male or female). By the way, generally speaking, the women in my unit were professional soldiers who compared favorably with most of the men, better than some, in their military bearing and intelligence–except, of course, for the physical mis-matches I describe above. I would have no problem serving under any of them generally, but I would have a problem serving with them in a foxhole, or manning a towed howitzer with them, or… ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-in-direct-combat-ground-brigades-or-not/111883/65 "2002-06-10T20:55:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by il Topo \* > \*\*By the way, generally speaking, the women in my unit were professional soldiers who compared favorably with most of the men, better than some, in their military bearing and intelligence–except, of course, for the physical mis-matches I describe above. I would have no problem serving under any of them generally, but I would have a problem serving with them in a foxhole, or manning a towed howitzer with them, or… \*\* And further by the way, some of the men (two in particular) truly scared the living stuff out of me due their mental faculties (or lack thereof) that they might actually be in command of combat troops some day. There are truly some people who are not meant to be in the military due to requirements both physical and mental. The requirements should be uniform, not discriminatory for any reason, sex included. At any rate, after posting, I got to thinking: would I rather serve with a physically fit moron (one of the men in my unit mentioned above) or an intelligent but physically weaker person (the women in my unit)? Really, I’d have to go with the smarts over the brawn. Of course, I’d rather not have to choose. ---
**Author:** ![obidiah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@obidiah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obidiah)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-in-direct-combat-ground-brigades-or-not/111883/66 "2002-06-11T12:28:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > **Hmmm…You mean like humping around with 90 or so pounds of gear, chasing an elusive enemy in unfamiliar terrain? Nothing like Afghanistan, I guess.** Exactly. Nothing at all like Afghanistan. There is a huge difference between mechanized mop up operations and fighting a ground war. Our soldiers in Afghanistan are not under any more physical duress than they would be in the States under training. I’m not talking about hardship here, only physical duress. These units train for this type of operation. It is what they do for a living, **Brutus**. Anyone with the (presumably) vast amounts of combat experience such as yourself should know this. > [@](#): > > \*\*Out of curiosity, where has America had a 18 months out of 42 in a battle area since Vietnam? If you tell me K-For or I-For, I will be forced to laugh aloud. That is not combat. > > Even when I was in the Croatian Army, during the civil war, incredibly few units actually spent such a high percentage of time forward deployed, much less in the actual FEBA.\*\* Where did I say I spent 18 _consecutive_ months at the FEBA? Oh, that’s right, I didn’t. Where did I say 42 months where in country? Please piont it out to me? I don’t know how the Croatian Army runs things, **Brutus** , but our unit was in the field continuously. You have decided to attack me and not the OP simply because I disagree with your viewpoint. For a person with all military training you claim to have it seems difficult for you to stay on task, soldier. In any case, I made it clear that my post was only from my experience. I haven’t trained with every woman in the US Army, but the majority of the ones I DID train with were professional soldiers. As for **il Topo** : There are plenty of male soldiers who couldn’t do what you claim these woman couldn’t do. You even say yourself: > [@](#): > > **I assigned the M-60 (a heavy automatic rifle) to one of the bigger men in my unit at the start of an extended trip to the field.** One of the bigger men, huh? Why not one of the smaller men? Being a man they could certainly handle it, right? ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-in-direct-combat-ground-brigades-or-not/111883/67 "2002-06-11T17:31:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by obidiah \* > **In any case, I made it clear that my post was only from my experience. I haven’t trained with every woman in the US Army, but the majority of the ones I DID train with were professional soldiers.** Agreed. My follow up post attempted to demonstrate my agreement here. > [@](#): > > \*\*As for **il Topo** : > There are plenty of male soldiers who couldn’t do what you claim these woman couldn’t do. You even say yourself: > “I assigned the M-60 (a heavy automatic rifle) to one of the bigger men in my unit at the start of an extended trip to the field.” > One of the bigger men, huh? Why not one of the smaller men? Being a man they could certainly handle it, right? \*\* Regarding the M-60 story, the point is that I was attempting to maximize the potential of my troops for a mission without regard to their sex (but definitely with regard to their strength and stamina, e.g., by selecting a man in better shape than myself), and I ended up getting in a feminism/chauvanism pissing match. I’m just relating my experience. None of the men in the unit dropped their packs on the forced march; some of the women did. But your point is also well taken. The above described events have stuck in my mind prominently, but I am forced to recall my subsequent reserve unit in which quite a few men could barely walk the two mile PT test “run” in shorts and running shoes, much less complete a forced march in full gear. (Hell, even my commander, a male, flunked the PT test. Now there’s motivation for the troops!) It shouldn’t make a difference that the reserve unit was a support unit, and not a “front line” unit. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-in-direct-combat-ground-brigades-or-not/111883/68 "2018-06-29T00:32:28Z")
**Israel graduates first women tank commanders** Jerusalem (AFP) - The Israeli army on Thursday graduated the first four women from its tank commanders’ school, a step toward the formation of all-female tank crews. Another six have completed training as crew members, but actual deployment of any of the women will depend on the outcome of a review by senior officers, an armoured corps commander said. The project is a pilot programme to test whether women can be an integral part of armoured operations. Four-member tank crews operate, often for many hours, in cramped conditions where physical strength is needed to handle heavy cannon shells and engine parts which may need to be handled in the event of a breakdown… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-in-direct-combat-ground-brigades-or-not/111883/69 "2018-06-29T00:49:35Z")
A baby girl born the day this thread started could be contemplating going to West Point in the near future. ---
**Author:** ![I\_can\_t\_think\_of\_a\_name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed8c4c/32.png) [@I\_can\_t\_think\_of\_a\_name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_can_t_think_of_a_name)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-in-direct-combat-ground-brigades-or-not/111883/70 "2018-06-29T01:00:15Z")
My opinion is the same as it always is - a person’s sex should not be considered in anything for which it isn’t directly, provably relevant and then only to the extent to which it is relevant. Standards should be created solely on the basis of the position and applicants tested against those standards. The same standards for everyone. No exceptions. > [@Rysdad](#): > > I’d be in favor of some sort of special forces duty for women. They might be better able to go unnoticed in some areas. It would certainly be unexpected. That has been done in some circumstances. The UK had some women in special forces during WW2, for example. It does confer an advantage in some circumstances (and a disadvantage in some others). As a random example of how it can confer an advantage, Nancy Wake bluffed her way through checkpoints in Nazi-occupied France during WW2 on a number of occasions. Being a pretty woman gave her a considerable advantage in doing that. The guards shouldn’t have been far less suspicious of a pretty woman, but they were and she made use of that. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-in-direct-combat-ground-brigades-or-not/111883/71 "2018-06-29T04:41:34Z")
Many of the arguments I’ve read here assume that males would instinctively treat females differently. However, this is not instinctive but learned behavior and therefore could be changed, when it does exist, with training. I have no military background but would hope that those few who might refuse to be trained out of their prejudices, whether toward women or different ethnicities, would be found unfit for combat by reason of their unreliability. Nobody has used [Norway](https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130125-women-combat-world-australia-israel-canada-norway) as an example of countries that use women in combat. > [@](#): > > In 1985, Norway became the first country in NATO to allow women to serve in all combat capacities, including submarines. Norwegian women are also subject to the draft in the event of a national mobilization. “The few women that are attracted by the infantry and cavalry do a great job in the Norwegian Army,” says Col. Ingrid Gjerde, an infantry officer in the Norwegian military for 25 years. > > “I have to be clear: You have to meet the physical standards, because the job is still the same. It works very well as long as women hold the standards,” added Colonel Gjerde, who was the commander of Norwegian forces in Afghanistan in 2012. “It’s not a big deal because women who go into these fields know the standards, and it’s not that hard for women to train up to the standards if they really want.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-women-be-in-direct-combat-ground-brigades-or-not/111883.md?page=3)