# Should you expect to know what genitals a person has before a first date? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 12, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329 "2019-11-12T15:31:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/181 "2019-11-14T18:56:13Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Dude, I’m married. I know all about spending evenings without getting laid. That’s not the deal. If I was single and asking someone on a date, I’d be interested in pursuing a romantic relationship. That’s just not possible for me with someone that is trans. Tell me up front, and we both can move on to other opportunities, no harm no foul. Then you should mention that before any potential dates. Managing your time is your responsibility, not anyone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/182 "2019-11-14T19:02:13Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > l > I doubt that it will catch on as a term, but conceptually yeah. I’m _not_ precisely straight. Straight people are attracted to the opposite _gender_, not just the opposite _sex_. Straightness – how it’s done, how the courting and flirting and making out are scripted – is set up as a very gendered sequence of behaviors. I’m the wrong gender to be straight with women and most female people are, of course, women. But I could be straight with female people whose gender isn’t “woman”. Straightbackwards. I disagree that this captures what heterosexuality is. Give your typical straight dude a porno mag full of naked 2-D images, and you’ll see arousal. It’s not gendered behaviors turning him on; it’s female anatomy. I’ve been attracted to a diverse range of men. Some have been more stereotypically masculine and some have been the opposite. The only thing they really all have in common is anatomical. Undeveloped mammaries, penises, testicles, and flat hips. To whatever extent I’m attracted to gender, it’s just icing on the cake. The cake is primarily physical. I don’t think I’m unique in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/183 "2019-11-14T19:03:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Then you should mention that before any potential dates. Managing your time is your responsibility, not anyone else’s. This is just it, in the simplest possible way. If you have dating requirements regarding physical features, and you’d consider dating someone who violates one of those requirements to be wasting your time, then that is _your problem_, not anyone else’s problem. It’s your problem, and your responsibility to solve that problem. If this is so important to you, then you should tell people in advance before a date. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/184 "2019-11-14T19:06:49Z")
God, people make such a big deal over every tiny thing. Who the fuck cares? You go on a date with a woman. Maybe it even goes well. At the end of the night, she says she has something to tell you before you go further, and reveals that she is transgendered. You’re not comfortable having a romantic relationship with someone who is transgendered, so you don’t go on a second date. Where is the fucking tragedy? Deal with it. What if she was cis, but when she pulled out her phone to call a ride home, you see that she had a sticker proudly announcing some belief you disagree with, that you would find to be a Deal breaker? Either way, you’re wasting your time. This date has gone no where. If only she told you that she was a communist before you went on this date! There aren’t all that many members of the Communist Party in the US, clearly the default assumption is that she is not a commie. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/185 "2019-11-14T19:55:39Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I disagree that this captures what heterosexuality is. Give your typical straight dude a porno mag full of naked 2-D images, and you’ll see arousal. It’s not gendered behaviors turning him on; it’s female anatomy. > > I’ve been attracted to a diverse range of men. Some have been more stereotypically masculine and some have been the opposite. The only thing they really all have in common is anatomical. Undeveloped mammaries, penises, testicles, and flat hips. To whatever extent I’m attracted to gender, it’s just icing on the cake. The cake is primarily physical. > > I don’t think I’m unique in this regard. To piggy back off of this, there are millions of straight women who swoon over both Prince and the Rock. And I gotta think most straight men are OK with women who flout stereotypical gender roles and notions as long as they come to the table with something sexy and interesting. I am having a hard time believing that the average single straight guy would kick a conventionally physically attractive woman out his bed just because she lacks domestic skills and walks like a lumberjack. He may claim that he hates short hair on a woman, but would he really say no to Jamie Lee Curtis’s advances? I am doubtful. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/186 "2019-11-14T19:58:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I wonder how many guys who believe they are entitled to know whether a woman they take on a first date has a dick would eagerly reveal their most unattractive quality to a woman who asks them out on a date. In a hot minute! Should I start listing them? I have a lot of them. It could take a while. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/187 "2019-11-14T20:11:08Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I disagree that this captures what heterosexuality is. Give your typical straight dude a porno mag full of naked 2-D images, and you’ll see arousal. It’s not gendered behaviors turning him on; it’s female anatomy. > > I’ve been attracted to a diverse range of men. Some have been more stereotypically masculine and some have been the opposite. The only thing they really all have in common is anatomical. Undeveloped mammaries, penises, testicles, and flat hips. To whatever extent I’m attracted to gender, it’s just icing on the cake. The cake is primarily physical. > > I don’t think I’m unique in this regard. Yes, I didn’t state that very clearly, did I? Most people (I think, based on what I’ve heard) are – like me – attracted to the anatomy. But _given_ the presence of an attraction, (I think, based on what I’ve heard and observed) most people in a heterosexual interaction proceed to interact in a fairly gendered way, expecting fairly gendered behavior from the other person. Gay and lesbian people may expect somewhat gendered behavior but it doesn’t polarize them into Your Role and My Role style behaviors, if you see what I mean. It’s far from universal (good thing, too, or I’d be totally out in the cold) but it’s normative, and when people behave outside those expected patterns, _interpretations_ tend to be projected onto the people so behaving. If one has the good fortune to be interacting with someone who has a taste for such interactions, we’re off to a good start, but what’s far more likely is that it gets a negative reading. Enough so to make it highly useful to have a discussion ahead of time and screen out the folks who aren’t wired so as to like atypical interactions. You (or some of you reading along) may opt to say “oh I dunno where the hell you’re coming from, I totally don’t go for rigid stereotyped behaviors” etc, but I can cite you a huge batch of Straight Dope Message Board posts to back up the notion that there are a lot of people who do indeed react negatively, who do indeed interpret behaviors in a very gendered way in this sphere of interactive behavior. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/188 "2019-11-14T20:48:19Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > To piggy back off of this, there are millions of straight women who swoon over both Prince and the Rock. And I gotta think most straight men are OK with women who flout stereotypical gender roles and notions as long as they come to the table with something sexy and interesting. I am having a hard time believing that the average single straight guy would kick a conventionally physically attractive woman out his bed just because she lacks domestic skills and walks like a lumberjack. He may claim that he hates short hair on a woman, but would he really say no to Jamie Lee Curtis’s advances? I am doubtful. > > Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk I think you need to update your celebrities, Prince is dead, and though I admit Jamie Lee Curtis was a knockout in True Lies she’s kind of getting up there in age. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/189 "2019-11-14T21:01:22Z")
> [@pool](#): > > I think you need to update your celebrities, Prince is dead, and though I admit Jamie Lee Curtis was a knockout in True Lies she’s kind of getting up there in age. Ooh burn. You got me. I am actually posting this from 1985. (I actually think that live Prince was so hot that there would be plenty of women who would seriously consider slobbing down dead Prince, if given the chance. And I doubt the average single straight male wouldn’t at least check out a gray-haired Jamie Lee Curtis as long as she was wearing something sexy. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Scoobysnax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Scoobysnax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scoobysnax)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/190 "2019-11-14T21:51:31Z")
As a happily married person this question does not apply to me. However, I think a lot of people are missing the “first date” portion of the question. There are a lot of things that could take a person out of your potential dating pool that you would not know about until the second or later dates. I would not date a bible thumping Trump supporter, but I would not go putting that in an online dating profile. This is not the first time I have seen this topic discussed. A Reddit topic on trans women wanting to date lesbians made it to the front page a few months back. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/191 "2019-11-14T21:53:20Z")
> [@pool](#): > > I would actually say the opposite is true and the great majority are pretty obvious, pictures can also be deceptive but I’d argue in person probably 90% or more would be obvious. I’m basing my opinion on face to face encounters. For example, one aspect of the enormous fun of The Henri David Ball is wondering which women are cis. I’ve been surprised a few times when an attendee I thought was a cis woman outs herself by going onstage for the Female Impersonator categories. RE The Them Study The link says the sample size was a little under a thousand. I find this too small. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/192 "2019-11-14T22:32:00Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > A “woman” with a dick isn’t a woman. > > There’s women, and trans women. There’s nothing bigoted about having a preference for one or the other. Quoted for truth ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/193 "2019-11-14T22:59:04Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > And I say that’s bullshit. The outlier ought to have the common courtesy to inform someone they know is probably not into that what the deal is before accepting a date. No, the bullshit (and chickenshit bullshit at that) is arbitrarily labeling just one particular subset of women “outliers” who are supposed to take on the responsibility of doing your pre-date screening for you. > [@Oakminster](#): > > Because it is a waste of time for all concerned. I don’t like having my time wasted. I don’t like to waste other people’s time. Then you should put in your (hypothetical) dating profile the fact that you don’t date transgender women. Problem solved, no time wasted. Now, if a transgender woman disregards your stated profile criteria and tries to get with you without revealing that she’s transgender, **then** you can be annoyed with her for wasting your time. But it’s not anybody else’s responsibility to ensure that you don’t go on a date with any transgender women _ **when you haven’t actually stated that you don’t want to date any transgender women** _. > [@Shodan](#): > > It seems odd to insist that the needs of the many must give way to the needs of the (very) few. It’s not a question of “needs”, it’s a question of responsibility. If you have a strict criterion about whom you will or won’t date, then you’re the one responsible for making that criterion clear to potential dating partners. It is not anybody else’s responsibility to reveal personal information about themselves just so you can avoid taking responsibility for your own screening criteria. And let’s face it, what’s the only reason that you (generic “you”) **wouldn’t** take the obvious logical step of specifying “cisgender women only” in your dating profile if you really, really want to make sure that you date only cisgender women? Why, because you’re afraid that specifying “cisgender women only” will make you look like a chickenshit transphobe and be a turnoff to cisgender women who don’t like chickenshit transphobes. Well, too bad, Sparky. It’s still your responsibility to state your own dealbreaker criteria upfront if you don’t want to have to deal with any potential dating partners who don’t meet those criteria. No matter how much you would prefer to offload that responsibility onto the tiny minority of transgender women, in order to avoid the risk of looking like a chickenshit transphobe in the eyes of some cisgender women. (Protip: trying to offload that responsibility isn’t making you look any **less** chickenshit or transphobic.) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/194 "2019-11-14T23:00:33Z")
So when you find out you’re not compatible at the end of your first date, don’t go on a second. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/195 "2019-11-14T23:13:22Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > (Protip: trying to offload that responsibility isn’t making you look any **less** chickenshit or transphobic.) He’s not trying to date us, though. His ideal world would be to make a profile that makes him look like a calm, kind, brave man with throbbing pectorals who can attract any woman, and to get a woman who he considers a woman who will never have to find out that if she’d been outside his definition of a woman he wouldn’t have been calm or brave or possibly even kind. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/196 "2019-11-14T23:22:05Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > A “woman” with a dick isn’t a woman. You can have your personal criteria for who you feel qualifies for your own personal definition of “woman”, but you don’t get to make that choice for anybody else. Whether you like it or not (and you obviously don’t), most developed societies are now moving in the direction of recognizing the **social** category of gender as defined by personal gender identity. This is partly because as we learn more about the physiology and psychology of sex and gender, we’re finding more and more indications that transgender identity (along with other “genderqueer” identities) is a normal and natural, although rare, phenomenon. And it’s partly because it’s simply too much trouble to check inside everybody’s underwear every time they attempt to engage in some socially gendered activity such as using a gendered restroom or wearing feminine clothing and makeup. > [@Ibanez](#): > > There’s women, and trans women. There’s nothing bigoted about having a preference for one or the other. There’s cisgender women, and transgender women. No, there’s not necessarily anything bigoted about having a preference for one or the other. But if you feel you need to justify your preference by actively **excluding** transgender women from the category of “women” entirely, then that sure comes across as bigoted. Just date who you like, without trying to impose all these petty demanding rules about how other people are supposed to describe and define themselves in order to make it easier for you to avoid the ones you **don’t** like without being honest about your preferences. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/197 "2019-11-14T23:31:11Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > His ideal world would be to make a profile that makes him look like a calm, kind, brave man with throbbing pectorals who can attract any woman, and to get a woman who he considers a woman who will never have to find out that if she’d been outside his definition of a woman he wouldn’t have been calm or brave or possibly even kind. Yup. I swear, if I were still in the dating world these days I would probably make it a rule to ask on every first date something like _“So, how would you feel if it turned out that I was transgender?”_ It appears to be a terrific diagnostic tool for detecting insecurity and toxic masculinity and a bunch of other shit no gal should have to put up with. (ETA: not that it’s particularly fair to actual transgender people to make use of their gender identity in that way, I suppose. Sigh.) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/198 "2019-11-15T00:58:59Z")
We had a similiar discussion [before](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=834319). The majority of people thought the idea was bullshit. We also had another thread discussing another article from the [same site](https://everydayfeminism.com/2017/12/intersectional-feminist-first-date/) about springing political beliefs on people on a first date. (Unfortunately, I cannot find said thread, perhaps someone else could?) > [@Oakminster](#): > > Because it is a waste of time for all concerned. I don’t like having my time wasted. I don’t like to waste other people’s time. Your time could be wasted by a number of things. In this case, the worst that could happen is you have a good time hanging out with someone, and hey, maybe you end up good friends? Big deal. Unless you’re extremely lucky, everyone is going to have a few dates that don’t lead to anything. Oh well. It’s hardly the end of the world – you’re not going to get trans-cooties or something. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/199 "2019-11-15T01:16:42Z")
It’s not an unreasonable expectation. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/200 "2019-11-15T01:26:31Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Some people think women have a deep, visceral instinct to woo only good providers. Does this mean a man with a poor credit score should disclose this information on the second date? > > Some people think men have a deep, visceral instinct to woo only fertile women. Does this mean a woman should disclose her hysterectomy on the first date? > > I don’t think a person with “surprise” genitalia should do the disclosure as they are pulling off their clothes. That would be triflin’. > > However, I gotta think that most mature people who are interested in taking things to the next level already schedule a “pre-meeting”, wherein awkward topics like medical status and contraception usage (and maybe even feelings about abortion) are laid out on the table before sex is initiated. I don’t really see why genitalia can’t be a part of this conversation since many cis-gendered people already use this as an opportunity to talk about their parts. A woman might bring up her vaginismus, while a guy might talk about his ED. If a couple doesn’t care enough to have a “pre-meeting” like this, then maybe they aren’t mature enough to have sex in the 21st century. > > I gotta think most people are capable of overriding their “deep, visceral instincts” if they are looking for a meaningful relationship with a real person. Otherwise there would be fewer couples out there. What about quick hookups? Sometimes folks just want to get busy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329.md?page=11)