# Should you expect to know what genitals a person has before a first date? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 12, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329 "2019-11-12T15:31:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/21 "2019-11-12T16:58:26Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If genitalia is a dealbreaker for someone, it’s a dealbreaker for that someone. So it is perfectly reasonable to want to know in advance, to spare both parties any needless waste of time or energy. I agree, but I also think it’s perfectly reasonable to _not want to say_ - trans complications aside, “What sort of genitals do you have” is a weird question for a first date, IMO ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/22 "2019-11-12T17:02:11Z")
You cannot nag or scold someone into changing their sexual orientation (assuming someone considers an M-to-F to not be a “true” F, or vice versa.) It is ironic how many insist that gays and lesbians are who they are and cannot be cajoled or therapy’d into changing their sexual orientation, yet expect a straight heterosexual man to be scold-able into ignoring the fact that his partner exhibits, well, the genitalia of a man. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/23 "2019-11-12T17:02:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m confused. Isn’t the whole point about freedom of identity and gender and sexual orientation about being able to make your own choices? These columnists seem to be suggesting that you should date anyone regardless of gender, sex, sexual preference, etc., and just be willing to find out down the line whether you’re fundamentally compatible. Those aren’t necessarily incompatible positions. They also aren’t exactly the positions being taken by the columnists. To the first, it’s possible to believe that everyone should be free to express their gender or sexuality in whatever way they feel most comfortable with, while also believing that its important to experiment and try things that are a little outside of your comfort zone, because you might be surprised at what you find yourself liking. The person writing in to the column is okay with dating trans women in general, and was totally down for sexy times with one particular trans woman until they got their clothes off and he saw she was pre-op. I don’t think pointing out that he could still have had sexy times without having to do anything with her penis is necessarily asking him to “date anyone regardless of … sexual preference.” It’s possible that’s still a hard “no” for the dude, and that’s okay - but that means that if he’s still open to dating trans women, he’s going to potentially find himself in a similar situation later on, because really, there is no way to ask about a trans woman’s genitals without being an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/24 "2019-11-12T17:03:21Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Do you think that straight men should start being attracted to both cis-women and trans-women, because, according to this particular classification they’re both “women”? Straight men are attracted to both cis and transwomen because as I mentioned before, it is usually straight men who date straight transwomen. > [@](#): > > You can, for example, say (A) that there are women and trans-women, and that they are both of the feminine gender, or you can say that (B) there are cis-women and trans-women, and they’re both women. I’m just saying that if you do consider transwomen to be women or of the feminine gender or whatever and that you are straight/attracted to women but NOT attracted to transwomen, then one of above statements is necessarily not true. Either you do not consider transwomen to be women (and therefore you can safely be straight/attracted to women without risking being attracted to a transwomen) or you are only attracted to ciswomen. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/25 "2019-11-12T17:03:40Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Sure, I’ll bite. For a while now I’ve thought of myself as a “straight man attracted to women.” You’re saying I should rephrase that as “a straight cis-man born with a penis attracted to cis-women born with a vulva.” I guess I can live with that, except that I have this sneaking feeling that your post seems slightly pejorative about this point of view. What I’ve been seeing online for the past few years is that saying that would make you transphobic, possibly even homophobic. It doesn’t seem to be getting to much traction, but it’s certainly there. Luckily, the vast majority of the people out there wouldn’t consider statements like ‘I’m a male, interested in men’ or ‘I’m straight woman’ to be any more out of the ordinary than “I like green olives” or “I’m 27 years old”. It seems to me, the people that say things like ‘oh, you’re a straight male but you wouldn’t date a transexual woman, why not, are you transphobic?’ are the people that are just looking for something to be angry about. If they weren’t looking to pick a fight, they could probably understand the concept of not being sexually attracted to someone AND not having a problem with their existence. Unless the people saying these things are all _actively_ pansexual (not just in name only) and are willing to date anyone at all, they really don’t have a leg to stand on. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/26 "2019-11-12T17:06:42Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > But if it’s time to bump uglies…does the author even know what sexual intercourse is? I think we’re seeing some big time projection in the author. Considering that one of them is a porn actress… yeah, probably. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/27 "2019-11-12T17:07:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > there is no way to ask about a trans woman’s genitals without being an asshole. But that’s not some fundamental law of nature. It’s a societal norm that people have agreed to accept, for now, and societal norms change all the time. I’ve been in a society in which it’s a norm for people to come out and ask you just out of curiosity what your income is, and how much you’re paying for your house and your car, and if you have any debt, etc., and I’ve been in a society in which it’s considered being an asshole. Is one or the other intrinsically correct? Just as traditional society found ways to signal biological gender through different means, then we in the modern society could also do that. Or we could just say that it’s an acceptable question and move on to making our choices. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/28 "2019-11-12T17:08:25Z")
The problem with this whole trans issue (not just this, but in general,) is that you cannot expect surface logic to overcome deep, visceral instinct. Imagine that someone has a phobia of spiders, and is terrified of arachnids. Then you take a tarantula and put it on his arm and say _ **"Repeat after me: This is a butterfly, not a spider. This is a butterfly, not a spider…"** _ Do you think he is going to be any less afraid of the 8-legged thing crawling on his arm? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/29 "2019-11-12T17:09:08Z")
On preview, never mind. The _Slate_ article is trolling. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/30 "2019-11-12T17:09:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > On preview, never mind. The _Slate_ article is trolling. > > Regards, > Shodan I’ve frequently wondered whether Slate’s advice columns are faked. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/31 "2019-11-12T17:10:19Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > But that’s not some fundamental law of nature. It’s a societal norm that people have agreed to accept, for now, and societal norms change all the time. Yes, and so what? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/32 "2019-11-12T17:39:20Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > That said, I think if I were trans and I still possessed the genitalia I had been born with, I would find dates through a dating service so that I could target an audience who I know are OK with transgenderism and discordant sex-gender presentation. I wouldn’t be putting myself out there on the wide open market because the risk of heartbreak would be too much for me to take. This seems like the most rational and sensible way to go. If you’re a trans person, you surely must be painfully aware of the kind of danger you’d be exposing yourself to if you were not very selective and honest about the kinds of partners you were seeking to attract. To even subtly imply that trans people behave otherwise on any significant scale seems deliberately dishonest, possibly with some nefarious motives. Which makes me wonder if the authors of these kinds of articles are either concern trolling or exploiting their own sexual preference or fetish just for a story. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/33 "2019-11-12T17:45:46Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > This seems like the most rational and sensible way to go. If you’re a trans person, you surely must be painfully aware of the kind of danger you’d be exposing yourself to if you were not very selective and honest about the kinds of partners you were seeking to attract. In past threads similar to this one, it was mentioned that many transgender people do not want to put their status on dating sites, since they may not be “out” and may not want others to know that they are transgender. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/34 "2019-11-12T18:01:44Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > This seems like the most rational and sensible way to go. If you’re a trans person, you surely must be painfully aware of the kind of danger you’d be exposing yourself to if you were not very selective and honest about the kinds of partners you were seeking to attract. The guy writing the letter knew he was with a trans woman, so this really isn’t a deception narrative. Presumably, the woman he was with assumed that “okay with a trans woman” equated to “okay with a penis,” which is not an unfair assumption. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/35 "2019-11-12T18:08:56Z")
Does one have a right to know what someone has in their pants? In a conventional binary world, no. Even if that person is somehow mutilated, it is not something that one needs to disclose right away. They are a person of a certain gender who will be attracted to a member of the opposite gender and rarely is a person perfect in every aspect. I dated a woman who had absolutely no breast or areolae development - none. She wore a padded bra. It was only revealed when we started to get intimate. To me it was a bit surprising, also a bit disappointing as I do like female breasts as they are very fun to play with, but overall not a factor in the relationship. I never felt she owed to tell me, it is who she is. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/36 "2019-11-12T18:10:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The guy writing the letter knew he was with a trans woman, so this really isn’t a deception narrative. Presumably, the woman he was with assumed that “okay with a trans woman” equated to “okay with a penis,” which is not an unfair assumption. Thanks. Missed that important detail. ---
**Author:** ![Macca26](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/13edae/32.png) [@Macca26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Macca26)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/37 "2019-11-12T18:31:23Z")
There’s a few points I could go down in the list, and it’s basically: If you know you’re dating a trans person, then you should know what possibilities that may entail. This isn’t a surprise. So the guy posing the question makes you wonder why he didn’t think of this to begin with. Having dealbreakers about the state of someone’s genitalia is normal, but probably shouldn’t be broadcasted to the public. Expecting a perfectly streamlined and efficient dating situation is unrealistic. Everyone has to go through the work of meeting people and discovering their compatibility, and what’s in your pants is just one of many things on the list that may make or break a relationship. You gotta go through finding out about it naturally just like everything else, like finding out if they yell at waiters and chew with their mouth open. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/38 "2019-11-12T18:42:43Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I am sooo happy I’m in a long term relationship with someone who is likely to survive me. This x1000. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/39 "2019-11-12T19:20:20Z")
Dates are about determining compatibility. If someone is really worried about the possibility of dating someone with their non-preferred below-the-belt physical features, they are free to ask potential dates. And those potential dates are free to decide that they are not compatible with someone who finds this so important that they insist on asking before the date, since that might be a sign of transphobia (the urgency and fear, not the preference). I don’t think there’s any problem with having preferences for physical features of any type – hair color/length/texture, height, build, etc., including what’s in their pants. But if you’re afraid that you might hold hands with, or hug, or kiss someone with the wrong “equipment”, or you’re afraid of what others might think, or have some other _fear_ about the possibility of dating someone with something in their pants that you’d prefer they don’t have, then IMO you should take a good long look at your own possible bigotries. IOW, it’s totally fine if you’d prefer not to date or have as intimate partners folks with certain physical features. But if you’re _afraid_ of the possibility of even dating such an individual, then you might have some deep-seated bigotries that, IMO, good folks should want to get past. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/40 "2019-11-12T19:27:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The guy writing the letter knew he was with a trans woman, so this really isn’t a deception narrative. Presumably, the woman he was with assumed that “okay with a trans woman” equated to “okay with a penis,” which is not an unfair assumption. If he knew she was trans, this suggests they had established openness before physical intimacy began. So I’m surprised “pre-op or not” didn’t come up in conversation. The reality is that people aren’t entitled to any private disclosures from dating partners. Forget about breasts and penises. Annual income, employment history, criminal background, and chronic health issues are all subjects that might go unrevealed until well into a relationship, if ever. What’s to be done about this? If someone doesn’t want any surprises about dealbreaker matters, the onus is on them to seek answers sooner rather than later. On the other hand, it is just as foolish to not be upfront about something when the probability is high it would be your partner’s dealbreaker, especially if the truth will be discovered just as soon as sex begins. As the saying goes, when people hear hooves, they think horses not zebras. If you’re a women dating a man, you’re generally going to assume he has a standard male package, not a female’s. It would be one thing if there was no functional difference between “horses” and “zebras”, but that’s not true. There are most costs than benefits to not ensuring your dating partner knows your equipment defies expectation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329.md?page=3)