# Should you expect to know what genitals a person has before a first date? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 12, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329 "2019-11-12T15:31:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/121 "2019-11-13T13:59:50Z")
monstro, I don’t know about all the should and ethics of the matter, but as a practical matter of protecting oneself from violence, a woman who finds out a guy has a small dick probably isn’t going to beat the shit out of him. A guy who was expecting a vagina and gets surprised by a penis shouldn’t either, but it probably does happen, and (I suspect most every trans woman is already acutely aware of this) so revealing that information before certain (probably very low) thresholds of intimacy have been crossed is, as a practical matter, a prudent thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/122 "2019-11-13T14:15:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > monstro, > > I don’t know about all the should and ethics of the matter, but as a practical matter of protecting oneself from violence, a woman who finds out a guy has a small dick probably isn’t going to beat the shit out of him. A guy who was expecting a vagina and gets surprised by a penis shouldn’t either, but it probably does happen, and (I suspect most every trans woman is already acutely aware of this) so revealing that information before certain (probably very low) thresholds of intimacy have been crossed is, as a practical matter, a prudent thing to do. I think that’s a reasonable concern and I expect you’re right that this does result in trans people sharing more information earlier, or choosing to meet people in forums where sharing and filtering this information is the norm (I have no idea, but I imagine there are dating sites where people can tick boxes to say whether they would or would not accept a trans partner). It seems like, in a better world, we would find the solution that resulted in people _not_ beating the shit out of other people just because they found out something they didn’t like, but I guess we don’t live in that world. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/123 "2019-11-13T14:18:15Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t think there is any reason to bring up credit scores on the first date either, but at least one poster thinks it’s okay. Is genitalia any different? Let’s not oversimplify my position (if you are indeed talking about my position). Someone can ask whatever they want. That’s what I mean by “okay.” But that doesn’t mean it is a social norm, nor that anyone being asked should take it in stride; it’s also okay to respond, “Who do you think you are?” But if any personal attribute is a dealbreaker for one person, it is in the best interests of both people to get this on the table as early as possible, whether it’s genitals, HIV positive, domestic abuse convictions, etc. It seems that everyone involved would want to avoid a “The Crying Game” scenario. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/124 "2019-11-13T14:28:39Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’ve asked the following of the thread participants already but didn’t get any satisfactory responses: > > 1. Should a woman without a uterus disclose this information on the first date? > 2. Should a guy with a micropenis disclose this information on the first date? > 3. Should someone with an STD disclose this information on the first date? > 4. Should someone with a prosthetic sexual organ (breasts, penis, etc.) disclose this information on the first date? > 5. Should someone with a history of trauma or mental illness disclose this information on the first date? > 6. Should someone with financial problems disclose this information on the first date? > 7. Should someone with a highly inheritable disorder (Huntington’s) disclose this information on the first date? > 8. Should someone with a non-obvious racial/ethnic background disclose this information on the first date? I think that a responsible person who is outside what is considered ‘normal’ should really disclose their difference before a first date without being asked.\* “I’d love to go out with you but you should be aware that I am HIV positive.” “I hope this isn’t a problem for you but I am not fully male/female… yet.”\* The question of trauma or mental/genetic illness and non-obvious racial/ethnic background is largely irrelevant unless you are discussing reproducing. Sadly, no one I am aware of has ever disclosed financial problems on any date. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/125 "2019-11-13T14:40:45Z")
I always wish to be sought after, lusted after, and loved for who I am. I can’t really wrap my head around wanting a partner from whom I’d hide something major about my identity, especially something central to my sexual identity. (And yes, although gender is not the same thing as sexual orientation, sexual orientation as we think of it is very much rooted in gender identity and/or dimorphic-sex identity. That may be a good starting point for an overdue critique of “gay” versus “straight” but in the dating world we still think in those terms, and anyone who dates has to deal with that somehow). I suppose it’s probably quite different for someone whose primary impetus is to fit in and be accepted as a typical person of the gender or sex that they identify as, but I’m supposing that from the outside. Still, I also suspect that the shortest and most efficient, as well as the safest, route to getting into a relationship where one is indeed regarded and accepted in that fashion is to screen for acceptance of transgender people from the outset. It’s not because “you owe it to them to tell them”. Transgender people don’t “owe” jack shit to the world with regards to their transhood. They have no such obligations. And on scrutiny-before-posting, I realize I haven’t addressed the situation of casual sex hookup protocol, and was thinking in terms of ongoing relationship. That’s going to be more complicated, insofar as where casual sex is concerned you _don’t_ necessarily want full open sharing honest intimacy; I mean that’s sort of what “casual” means in this context, yes? I don’t know what I think about that situation. Again, trans people don’t owe folks a damn thing. It’s a question of what works for them. I’d _think_ it would not be useful or effective to leave this piece of information out until erotically engaged, but I have no real clue. I was once the person on the opposite side of that equation, essentially picked up for smoking some pot, flirting, and the possibility of other things to follow by an individual I considered to be female. During the getting-high phase, the back of my head put some clues together and I reconsidered that evaluation. My companion apparently also assembled some clues from the back of her head about me having figured this out and expressed some mocking contempt and snark (mostly nonverbally). Probably a lot of hurt and anger behind that. As I say, I don’t feel like she owed it to me to let me know beforehand, but it seems like not doing so was letting her in for a lot of hurt feelings and disappointments. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/126 "2019-11-13T15:43:40Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I don’t know what I think about that situation. Again, trans people don’t owe folks a damn thing. It’s a question of what works for them. I’d _think_ it would not be useful or effective to leave this piece of information out until erotically engaged, but I have no real clue. I was once the person on the opposite side of that equation, essentially picked up for smoking some pot, flirting, and the possibility of other things to follow by an individual I considered to be female. During the getting-high phase, the back of my head put some clues together and I reconsidered that evaluation. My companion apparently also assembled some clues from the back of her head about me having figured this out and expressed some mocking contempt and snark (mostly nonverbally). Probably a lot of hurt and anger behind that. As I say, I don’t feel like she owed it to me to let me know beforehand, but it seems like not doing so was letting her in for a lot of hurt feelings and disappointments. The flipside of that risk of being hurt though, is missed opportunity. Being completely honest here, if I was starting relationships all over again (I’m not - I’m happily married for 28 years), I feel like I might react differently depending on when I learned the information about any aspect of a person’s private anatomy. That is to say, if I learned it before even meeting them, there is, I think, a higher probability that I might just say ‘nah - not what I want’ and keep looking. Whereas if I learned these details later, after there had been time to develop a bond, there is a higher probability that I might say(not out loud, you understand) “This is not what I expected, but I like you, so let’s give it a try” Of course that still might not work out, but ‘not working out’ is pretty common for all kinds of different, mundane reasons. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/127 "2019-11-13T15:51:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > monstro, > > I don’t know about all the should and ethics of the matter, but as a practical matter of protecting oneself from violence, a woman who finds out a guy has a small dick probably isn’t going to beat the shit out of him. A guy who was expecting a vagina and gets surprised by a penis shouldn’t either, but it probably does happen, and (I suspect most every trans woman is already acutely aware of this) so revealing that information before certain (probably very low) thresholds of intimacy have been crossed is, as a practical matter, a prudent thing to do. How many guys would someone beat someone for disclosing their penis on the fifth date rather than on the first? Shouldn’t a guy who would resort to violence in response to a penis inform someone of their transphobia before the first date? Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/128 "2019-11-13T18:16:22Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > How many guys would someone beat someone for disclosing their penis on the fifth date rather than on the first? i wouldn’t. But I would expect them to split the check for dinner, at least. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/129 "2019-11-13T18:16:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > i wouldn’t. But I would expect them to split the check for dinner, at least. Everyone I’ve ever dated had a penis, and the check wasn’t always split. How about this: “Regardless of whatever relationship ensues, I have no intention of ever being monogamous.” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/130 "2019-11-13T18:20:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > i wouldn’t. But I would expect them to split the check for dinner, at least. > > Regards, > > Shodan I think that is 100% fair as long as a guy has that expectation for all potential partners he abruptly changes his mind about. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/131 "2019-11-13T18:25:27Z")
I’m married, so the whole thing is moot for me from a practical point of view. However, were I single, I would expect the courtesy of being informed if the situation was anything other than what I might reasonably expect…ie, if my proposed date was anything other than a female from birth. Otherwise, the entire date is just a waste of both of our time. I’m not interested in that sort of exploration. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/132 "2019-11-13T18:48:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > How many guys would someone beat someone for disclosing their penis on the fifth date rather than on the first? > > Shouldn’t a guy who would resort to violence in response to a penis inform someone of their transphobia before the first date? > > Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk Sure, they “should”, and for that matter, they shouldn’t respond to surprise penises with violence. That’s a nice ideal to aspire to. Back in reality, there’s some real risk of physical harm if trans women pursue a relationship with heterosexual men who believe they’re dating a cis-gendered woman. I don’t think there’s a hard and fast # of dates at which point that disclosure should happen. It’s going to vary based on the individuals and the nature of their developing relationship. But I think it’s prudent to make that disclosure earlier rather than later. I actually think online dating can eliminate a lot of these problems. Basic profile and preference options like: I am a \_\_\_\_\_ and I am looking for a \_\_\_\_\_. The blanks can have options like cis- or trans-gendered man or woman. Everyone fills out their profiles correctly and no one gets surprised by a penis when they don’t want to. Anything wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/133 "2019-11-13T18:59:02Z")
Trans folks can be at risk of violence just by being open about their identity. I can’t blame folks for keeping something private from strangers, when revealing it could increase the chance of them being harmed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/134 "2019-11-13T19:13:36Z")
I don’t think saying on the third date “I have a little surprise for you” is going to work out better. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/135 "2019-11-13T19:15:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If you think that trans women are women, full stop, what’s the justification for categorically excluding trans women from your dating pool? I can understand, “I don’t like dick,” but not all trans women have dicks. I can understand, “She’s got features that read as masculine to me, and I find that unattractive,” but that also doesn’t apply to all trans women. I can see, “I want to have kids some day,” and yeah, that pretty much does eliminate all trans women from your dating pool, but that’s also going to include a fair number of cis women for the exact same reason. In all those cases (and a few others I didn’t list) it’s not specifically the trans-ness that’s the reason for the rejection. The only way I can square that circle is if the person in question doesn’t believe that trans women are women, “full stop,” and instead, at most, believes that trans women are “women with an asterisk”. And that latter position is okay, at least as far as personal romantic desire goes - I’m not taking the “fuck anyone or you’re a bigot” straw position that’s been cropping up the last few posts. But if someone feels that way, they’re also not the subject of my post, which is positing someone who is all-in on trans identity. I never said anything about like “fuck anyone or you’re a bigot” - stop strawmanning me. I said that your obviously fallacious argument only has any chance of being valid is if I _would_ fuck anyone (or rather, any woman). Your position seems to be this obviously fallacious argument: 1: All trans women are women. 2: I would have sex with some women, and not other women. Conclusion: Some of the women I would have sex with are trans women, by fallacious modus ponens on 1 and 2. That’s the direct thrust of your strange attempts at making arguments based on definitions. And as written it’s obviously fallacious. The only way for it not to be obviously fallacious would be if 2 was “I would have sex with all women.” But it ain’t, so your obviously fallacious argument is fallacious. Now, as to the rest of this post, which has nothing whatsoever with the arugument of yours we were discussing. You appear to be making the argument that it’s impossible for a man to accurately identify a trans woman based on secondary details, and thus that if they ONLY reject trans women, then they must be rejecting them for bigoted reasons. Which I’m okay with agreeing with. Though that’s not the same as saying they’re not women - as you appear to be realizing, since you drastically edited your position to believing that trans women are “women with an asterisk”, which of course also describes all tattooed women, all biologically related women, all married women - there are a _lot_ of asterisks out there. > [@monstro](#): > > You don’t get what quotation marks mean. You know, I don’t really feel argumentatively trounced by this. I don’t think it landed. > [@Velocity](#): > > Think of it this way. You may say, “I only date or marry humans” - even though, obviously, there are many humans in the world you wouldn’t date. Then someone asks you if you would be willing to marry his pet German Shepherd, that he classifies as human. Would you marry the dog? Once again, “I only date or marry humans” doesn’t mean “I’ll marry anything so long as it’s human”. Seriously, that’s not all _that_ to understand, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/136 "2019-11-13T19:24:33Z")
A lot of people are getting concerned and flummoxed over a situation they will never have to be in. If you don’t want people to think you’re an asshole, don’t be an asshole. If you don’t care if people think you’re an asshole then it doesn’t matter, it’s not like it’s against the law. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/137 "2019-11-13T19:49:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t think saying on the third date “I have a little surprise for you” is going to work out better. > > Regards, > > Shodan Who is saying that is how the truth should be presented? Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Mallard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/138 "2019-11-13T19:55:48Z")
My wife and I are both in our 60’s. If God forbid something happens to her and I’m plunked back into the dating world, hopefully if the ads are “Women seeking men” or “men seeking women” there’s at least that much truth. I would hope that I could tell the difference between a woman and a Transylvanian…or whatever they’re called before we get to the dick-check stage:eek: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/139 "2019-11-13T20:00:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t think saying on the third date “I have a little surprise for you” is going to work out better. > > Regards, > Shodan I agree! Not sure what this has to do with my post, though. I would imagine something like “I like you a lot, but before we go any further, there’s something you should know…” could be a likely strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329/140 "2019-11-13T20:46:37Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I never said anything about like “fuck anyone or you’re a bigot” - stop strawmanning me. Sorry, that line was absolutely not referring to you, I was talking about nonsense like post 84. > [@](#): > > Now, as to the rest of this post, which has nothing whatsoever with the arugument of yours we were discussing. You appear to be making the argument that it’s impossible for a man to accurately identify a trans woman based on secondary details, and thus that if they ONLY reject trans women, then they must be rejecting them for bigoted reasons. I wouldn’t say “bigoted,” but I am saying that if “being trans” is, by itself, solely enough to reject someone as a romantic or sexual partner, you don’t entirely buying into their identity as women. I’m open to being corrected on that, but it would necessarily involve delving into why someone would not be interested in dating a trans person. > [@](#): > > Which I’m okay with agreeing with. Though that’s not the same as saying they’re not women - as you appear to be realizing, since you drastically edited your position to believing that trans women are “women with an asterisk”, which of course also describes all tattooed women, all biologically related women, all married women - there are a _lot_ of asterisks out there. By “woman with an asterisk,” I didn’t mean “woman, plus something else,” I meant “woman, but not quite.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-expect-to-know-what-genitals-a-person-has-before-a-first-date/843329.md?page=8)