# Should you retain voting rights if you live in a foreign country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560 "2010-04-09T18:00:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/41 "2010-04-13T03:22:00Z")
In the interest of fighting ignorance (my own), what is U.S. policy towards the voting rights of people who are not residents of any state? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/42 "2010-04-13T03:35:18Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > A bit of commonsense says that Soldiers and Foreign Diplomats are excluded from the “If you cared, you wouldn’t have left” rule. How about people who work overseas for US corporations- say the guy who represents Ford in Japan or something? What about international aid workers who feel a strong connection to their country, but serve the world in a way that transcends national boundaries? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/43 "2010-04-13T05:07:23Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > How about people who work overseas for US corporations- say the guy who represents Ford in Japan or something? What about international aid workers who feel a strong connection to their country, but serve the world in a way that transcends national boundaries? Tough luck, basically. You don’t live there, you don’t get a say. If you’ve got a problem with it, don’t accept long-term overseas postings. Now, in order to make it fairer on “temporary” overseas postings, I think a 2 or maybe 3 year limit is reasonable- anything less than that, you’re entitled to lodge a postal vote in your last registered electorate in your home country. Anything over those 2 or 3 years, you’re deemed to have moved overseas and you no longer get to vote in your “home” country’s elections until you return home. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/44 "2010-04-13T06:13:39Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > In the interest of fighting ignorance (my own), what is U.S. policy towards the voting rights of people who are not residents of any state? Can’t vote. I know a fellow born in Saudi who never lived in the US and his parent’s state does not allow them to claim residency there. Still has to pay taxes to the US tho. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/45 "2010-04-13T06:15:55Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Tough luck, basically. You don’t live there, you don’t get a say. If you’ve got a problem with it, don’t accept long-term overseas postings. Do you think it is fair that one is not allowed to vote, yet has to pay taxes? (Americans have to pay taxes to the US no matter where they live). ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/46 "2010-04-13T06:42:06Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Do you think it is fair that one is not allowed to vote, yet has to pay taxes? (Americans have to pay taxes to the US no matter where they live). Nah, that isn’t fair, but life’s not fair and most other civilised countries don’t expect taxes from their ex-pats, so ultimately I stand by my earlier response: If you don’t like it, don’t move overseas. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/47 "2010-04-13T06:48:01Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Nah, that isn’t fair, but life’s not fair and most other civilised countries don’t expect taxes from their ex-pats, so ultimately I stand by my earlier response: If you don’t like it, don’t move overseas. For some Americans it wasn’t a choice to move overseas - many were born outside the US, can’t vote, yet pay taxes. I have been away 8 years, pay tons of tax to the US and absolutely vote. In the 2004 elections I paid about $60 to send my ballot by DHL as the local post was completely useless and unreliable. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/48 "2010-04-13T06:54:49Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > For some Americans it wasn’t a choice to move overseas - many were born outside the US, can’t vote, yet pay taxes. That sucks, but there’s not really a lot anyone can do about it, is there? > [@](#): > > I have been away 8 years, pay tons of tax to the US and absolutely vote. > > In the 2004 elections I paid about $60 to send my ballot by DHL as the local post was completely useless and unreliable. That’s a personal choice you make and it’s fine. In an ideal world, you wouldn’t be paying taxes if you didn’t live in the US- but you wouldn’t be voting, either, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/49 "2010-04-13T06:56:34Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Can’t vote. I know a fellow born in Saudi who never lived in the US and his parent’s state does not allow them to claim residency there. Still has to pay taxes to the US tho. If he’s never lived in the US, then he won’t be able to pass US citizenship to his child born overseas. (I don’t think I got that wrong. Feel free to correct me.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/50 "2010-04-13T07:01:32Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > In the 2004 elections I paid about $60 to send my ballot by DHL as the local post was completely useless and unreliable. You can vote via fax now. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/51 "2010-04-13T07:44:01Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Then if I am not part of the community, I should not have to pay US taxes, right? > > I have been overseas 8 years, but will have to pay US taxes till I die… but I do get to vote in Federal elections… yet my Congressmen do not consider me a resident of their state so I effectively have no representation. I’ve voted in the local elections in my state. When I get the absentee ballot it has all the local candidates. I didn’t know who some of them were but the ones I knew I cast my vote. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/52 "2010-04-13T09:42:10Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > That sucks, but there’s not really a lot anyone can do about it, is there? You can write to your Congressmen and Senators to get these laws changed. I have written such letters to all my representatives. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/53 "2010-04-13T09:44:09Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > If he’s never lived in the US, then he won’t be able to pass US citizenship to his child born overseas. (I don’t think I got that wrong. Feel free to correct me.) I’ve never heard that… so would his kids be stateless? They’d never get citizenship of the country they’d be born in (Saudi). I am pretty sure they’d still be American. Do you have a cite for this situation - quite interesting. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/54 "2010-04-13T10:06:40Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Anything over those 2 or 3 years, you’re deemed to have moved overseas and you no longer get to vote in your “home” country’s elections until you return home. You live in a very different world than I do. In my circles a 2-3 year assignment is considered a short vacation. I’ve been overseas 4 years, doing work that benefits American, and still consider myself very much American and concerned with American politics. Most of my American expat friends know way more about the issues than your average American. I’d be cool with not voting on local issues, but not being able to cast a vote for President? That’d be a bummer. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/55 "2010-04-13T10:18:49Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > You live in a very different world than I do. In my circles a 2-3 year assignment is considered a short vacation. I’ve been overseas 4 years, doing work that benefits American, and still consider myself very much American and concerned with American politics. Most of my American expat friends know way more about the issues than your average American. > > I’d be cool with not voting on local issues, but not being able to cast a vote for President? That’d be a bummer. Agree 100%. In the eight years I have been overseas, I have found most expat Americans to be far more concerned with politics than the average American. I think a large part of this is because US foreign policy tends to directly affect us. The only way I’d give up my right to vote is if I did not have to pay any tax to the USA. As long as I am paying tax, I _am_ going to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/56 "2010-04-13T10:27:39Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > I disagree that you should be allowed to keep voting in a general election if you’ve lived outside the country for such a long time, and continue to do so. 15 years sounds a little too long a delay. I’d put the cutoff for losing your vote at 10 years. Thanks very much. I’ve lived in the UK for 14 years now but still keep in touch with national and local issues via the internet, and still file tax returns. If I’m paying taxes, I damn well better be allowed to vote. And **Martini Enfield** , as the response to your proposal that first came to my mind is something that is banned even in the Pit, let me merely say that I disagree with it. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/57 "2010-04-13T11:42:54Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Because if they really valued being able to have a say in their country, they wouldn’t have moved to a different one? No, because that is an idiotic standard without any real basis in fact nor indeed anything, but some sort of primitive, atavistic territorial tribalism more worthy of the 16th century than the 21st and its global economy. Taking overseas opportunities on its **face** says **fuck all** about valuing having a “say” in a country (which I read as valuing the country itself, as that is the point of democracy). And relative to national interest it is by any historical example, flagrantly stupid and myopic to discourage citizen’s economic engagement overseas by bouts of expatriation, indeed long term expatriation. In a global economy, one needs one citizens out not just as diplos, but as business managers and other private sector interest out developing global skill sets and exposed to changes in the global economy that may be brought back Disenfranchising them over … what? A peevish and essentially primitive sense of territorial tribalism? Bloody daft policy. The only instance where such a thing _might_ make sense is an instance of where a diaspora of citizens outside the country presented such a significant voting block as to actually distort election results. As I can’ think of any instance where this obtains, so it’s purely theory. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/58 "2010-04-13T11:57:44Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > The only instance where such a thing _might_ make sense is an instance of where a diaspora of citizens outside the country presented such a significant voting block as to actually distort election results. > > As I can’ think of any instance where this obtains, so it’s purely theory. Except, ironically, the military, whose absentee ballots regularly impact upon election results. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/59 "2010-04-13T12:11:42Z")
The position in the past was that if you had no UK address, then you weren’t entitled to vote. Why should you, if you don’t live here any more, or pay taxes here any more? The Tories changed this, on the calculation that ex-pats would be more likely to vote Tory than anything else. I’d change it back again. If you don’t have a UK address, no vote. (with the usual savings for the Service vote and diplomatic staff posted abroad) ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/60 "2010-04-13T12:28:26Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Except, ironically, the military, whose absentee ballots regularly impact upon election results. Not ironic at all, insofar as military service is not **diaspora.** But beyond that, typically when one says expatriate one does not mean those overseas for military service alone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560.md?page=4)