# Should you retain voting rights if you live in a foreign country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560 "2010-04-09T18:00:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/81 "2010-04-16T03:05:29Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Care to remind me of where I said that? Or you can apologize for asserting that I said something I did not say. I don’t recall mentioning your name at all. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/82 "2010-04-16T03:50:04Z")
No, you just quoted me and then made that comment. Look, citizenship for many people, such as I, is not a tenuous connection to a country. I served my country for years and am still subject to recall to Active Duty in the Armed Forces. Even if I had not served or were not subject, as a citizen of the US, I am eligible _by law_ to vote. The legislature of my country made that determination long ago. Changing that law to strip those of us living overseas would not go over well at all. And it also brings up some other questions. For one, will there be a cut-off point after which overseas citizens no longer retain their citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/83 "2010-04-16T03:58:04Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > No, you just quoted me and then made that comment. […] > > I served my country for years and am still subject to recall to Active Duty in the Armed Forces. Even if I had not served or were not subject, as a citizen of the US, I am eligible _by law_ to vote. The legislature of my country made that determination long ago. Changing that law to strip those of us living overseas would not go over well at all. And it also brings up some other questions. For one, will there be a cut-off point after which overseas citizens no longer retain their citizenship? I was responding to your statement that, in your opinion, it was a good thing my views on the subject were not supported by American law, which to me is further cementing my opinion that this thread is not actually for a genuine debate on the subject, just an agreement that America Is Awesome And Can Do No Wrong and that this thread is really about what _Americans_ should be able to do overseas, and dissenting opinions from Non-Americans are automatically wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/84 "2010-04-16T04:13:20Z")
And I said any of that…where? I am an American and thus what concerns me on this debate is if American law permits overseas citizens to vote. Maybe you missed it but I also posted something about the Republic of Korea. Care to make a comment on that? Now, if you want to limit this discussiong to Australians commenting on the issue of Australians voting from overseas, have at it. But don’t get your dander up when that’s not what you stipulated at the outset. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/85 "2010-04-16T04:18:39Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > And I said any of that…where? I am an American and thus what concerns me on this debate is if American law permits overseas citizens to vote. Maybe you missed it but I also posted something about the Republic of Korea. Care to make a comment on that? I saw the fact you’re in Korea. I’m not disputing that, or Korea’s policies on the subject. But you’re the one who threw in the American Flag Waving, going on about your military service and so on. Actually, look, I’m sorry, forget it. I’m having a really shitty couple of weeks and the moment and I can’t clearly articulate what I’m getting at without getting into arguments with people, and more arguments with people is really something I don’t need right now. My point was that I thought this thread was to discuss whether or not a hypothetical person from a generic country should be able to retain voting rights if they move overseas. My response to that is “No”. But the reading I’m getting from this thread is “Should _Americans_ retain voting rights if _they_ live in a foreign country?”, which is not something I’m particularly interested in debating due to the inevitable direction the thread would take. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/86 "2010-04-16T04:27:35Z")
Non-resident citizens should be able to vote in national, non-district elections (e.g. the US presidential elections). It’s, at a bare minimum, the only franchise you have that empowers you to still have some political power so that you, as a non-resident citizen, aren’t completely jobbed over (yeah, yeah, not much “real” power, but it’s nominally important) Non-resident citizens should not be able to vote in local, district-based elections (e.g. MPs, Senators, State legislators, etc). Not fair because you really don’t have any connection to the district polity. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/87 "2010-04-16T06:59:29Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I saw the fact you’re in Korea. I’m not disputing that, or Korea’s policies on the subject. But you’re the one who threw in the American Flag Waving, going on about your military service and so on. Well, I didn’t toss in any flag waving. And I brought up the service issue to point out that, like me, a number of other veterans reside overseas. Removing from the the right to vote would freak out a lot of veterans who are not overseas. > [@](#): > > Actually, look, I’m sorry, forget it. I’m having a really shitty couple of weeks and the moment and I can’t clearly articulate what I’m getting at without getting into arguments with people, and more arguments with people is really something I don’t need right now. Okay. Hope whatever it is clears up soon. > [@](#): > > My point was that I thought this thread was to discuss whether or not a hypothetical person from a generic country should be able to retain voting rights if they move overseas. My response to that is “No”. But the reading I’m getting from this thread is “Should _Americans_ retain voting rights if _they_ live in a foreign country?”, which is not something I’m particularly interested in debating due to the inevitable direction the thread would take. I thought I indicated my position on yes by citing both my country’s example and that of another country with which I’m famiiliar. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough on that. If so, I’m sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/88 "2010-04-16T11:01:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why are you in Japan if you’re not there to make money? Long story. Short version is: came here to learn Japanese and practice martial arts. Had debts, paid debts, had no savings because of it. Met a girlfriend, eventually gained a wife. A couple years from now I’ll finally be in a position where I’ve got a realistic choice about which country to live in, but I didn’t have much chance of going anywhere for several years. Not unless I wanted my life to be very, very unpleasant, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/89 "2010-04-16T13:45:48Z")
Ah. Well, it’s not the reason I was expecting, but it’s a good one. Best of luck! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/90 "2010-04-16T14:43:25Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > The only way I’d give up my right to vote is if I did not have to pay any tax to the USA. As long as I am paying tax, I _am_ going to vote. I’m confused over how you can vote without being a legal resident of a state. I live in Arkansas and I have to vote here. I can’t just go to Texas or Missouri to vote unless I change my legal residence to one of those two states. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/91 "2010-04-16T15:09:58Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I’m confused over how you can vote without being a legal resident of a state. I live in Arkansas and I have to vote here. I can’t just go to Texas or Missouri to vote unless I change my legal residence to one of those two states. The [Federal Voting Assistance Program](http://www.fvap.gov/index.html) was set up, I believe, to make it easier for our overseas military to vote. But it also provides information & assistance to _any_ American citizen living overseas–temporarily or indefinitely. First, you need to register in your home state; these rules vary. Texas requests a Texas Drivers License # (or ID card #) plus a Texas address. Just your last address, even if you don’t own the property. Some states allow American citizens born overseas–who have never been to the USA–to register if a parent lived in that state. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/92 "2010-04-19T10:33:56Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > So far as I know, in the United States your right to vote never expires. So if a U.S. citizen moves to China for 20 years he or she will still retain the right to vote when they return. Of course, while they’re a resident of China they won’t be able to vote in U.S. elections. I really don’t have any problem with U.S. citizens who are residents of other countries being unable to vote in local, state, and federal elections here in the United States. If you’re not a resident then you’re not really part of the community. Tough noogies. > > Odesio The only true part of this is the first sentence. (Your opinion is, of course, your opinion, to which you are certainly entitled, so I make no statement about the latter part of your post.) An American citizen may vote in federal elections and certain local and state elections based on their last state of residence. As an American citizen who has lived in Germany for going on 14 years, I have voted via absentee ballot in every presidential election since I moved. My vote is counted in Virginia. I am no less an American citizen for living elsewhere, and I would dispute that I am not ‘really’ part of the community of Americans, noogies notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/93 "2010-04-19T11:57:55Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > The only true part of this is the first sentence. (Your opinion is, of course, your opinion, to which you are certainly entitled, so I make no statement about the latter part of your post.) An American citizen may vote in federal elections and certain local and state elections based on their last state of residence. As an American citizen who has lived in Germany for going on 14 years, I have voted via absentee ballot in every presidential election since I moved. My vote is counted in Virginia. > > I am no less an American citizen for living elsewhere, and I would dispute that I am not ‘really’ part of the community of Americans, noogies notwithstanding. You definitely know more about the laws governing voting for overseas Americans than **Odesio** does. (And after I went to all that trouble to supply information.) We need _more_ non-ignorant Americans voting–no matter where they hang their hat. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/94 "2010-04-19T13:31:53Z")
Might want to keep the hat on. Noogie defense. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/95 "2010-04-19T16:53:01Z")
In practice, citizenship is the only thing that is going to work. If it were based on where you live then it would need to be more symmetrical to be fair. In other words, you could lose the vote when you moved out of the country, but the country would allow people who moved to it to vote (in effect permanent residents). Politically, the United States and presumably most other countries are not going to allow permanent residents to vote anytime soon. And of course for proper fairness this would need to be symmetrical to an individual as well, namely they would be able to vote in the country they moved to. This is never going to happen, so the only consequence of making it based on where you live is that it is a mechanism for disenfranchising people who move away, not of enfranchising (?) people who move close. Having it based on citizenship is by no means perfect, especially when you consider dual citizenship, etc. But it is probably the closest approximation to fairness that can be practically implemented. Especially in countries where citizens living abroad are still taxes, such as the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/96 "2010-04-19T18:20:37Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > In practice, citizenship is the only thing that is going to work. If it were based on where you live then it would need to be more symmetrical to be fair. I’m not sure fairness is a concern. You can always regain your right to vote somewhere by going home. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/97 "2010-04-19T19:34:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not sure fairness is a concern. You can always regain your right to vote somewhere by going home. That’s irrelevant for US citizens. We _won’t_ lose our right to vote unless we lose our citizenship, no matter where we might live. Things just get a little more complicated. Of course, other countries have different laws for their own citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560/98 "2010-04-19T20:11:16Z")
Right, but **Driver** is saying that people from country X get screwed because they lose their franchise while people from country Y don’t. I’m saying that citizens of X can always go back there and regain their franchise whenever they want, so that’s not really an issue. For example, I could move back to Britain and start voting whenever I felt like it. I’m still a citizen. I’m not going to, though; I’ve been in the US for 14 and a half years, and I like it to much to leave for anything longer than a holiday. ETA: Interesting side note - I’ve never been able to vote. I was 13 when I left the UK, so I never paid income taxes, and I live in a US state where only citizens can vote in state and local elections. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-you-retain-voting-rights-if-you-live-in-a-foreign-country/535560.md?page=4)