If you give a statement, you take a risk of saying the wrong thing and going to jail. If you refuse to provide basic information of an assault, you will certainly go to jail. It is not like the movies where they hall you to the station and your attorney is waiting, arguing with detectives. Most people charged with a crime do not see a lawyer for at least a week (unless you have one on retainer). If you can’t afford one, try a month. And speaking with an attorney doesn’t get you out of jail; you have to have depositions, hearings, etc…
I can’t say there are not circumstances where I would consult with a lawyer first. If for instance, I used more force because I thought an attacker had a weapon and they didn’t, that is some tricky circumstances. But in most cases, I feel pretty secure in my ability to not to incriminate myself of a crime I didn’t commit. If the situation is pretty cut and dry, you have witnesses that support your claim, and/or there is an abundance of evidence to support what you are saying… why not avoid going to jail and getting charged? I think the idea that most cops are dirty manipulators trying to pin crimes on the innocent is exaggerated (at least from my experience).
Today, most departments utilize voice and video recorders. From the second the cop is out of the car, everything is on record. So, if you’re not confident to go immediately on the record, then don’t. If you have a good understanding of your local laws, know your rights, then weigh your options… Giving a statement may be in your best interests.
I’m pretty curious about how this situation would play out, too. Say I go out for dinner with friends. Nothing wild, just a dinner with a few drinks. They want to go to a club, I have to work early so I tell them I’ll grab a cab home. Walk a block, realize I don’t have any cash, stop at an ATM. Take out some money, walk another block, and some guy jumps out of nowhere wanting my cash. I manage to get him on the ground, unconscious, bleeding, without taking too much damage to myself. Maybe at one point he trips over his own feet while trying to throw a punch, whatever. I grab my phone and call 911, tell them I was defending myself and I need police and ambulance. They show up… and then what? There’s a bleeding guy out cold, it’s the middle of the night, no witnesses, I’m no where near where I live, there’s alcohol on my breath, I’m not hurt. I say I’m not talking until I see a lawyer and then… what? I don’t have one on speed dial. The police will want to question me about the other guy, I imagine. Am I just allowed to stand there and call everyone I know until someone gives me a lawyer’s name? What if everyone I know is sleeping or out and doesn’t answer their phone? Am I supposed to hitch a ride with the cops down to the station and try to get a lawyer from there?
Well, minus your colorful hypothetical, this is what I was wondering about, too. Do people walk around with the names of lawyers routinely? I have a colleague who teaches business law, but that would be a stretch. Can’t imagine he’d be too cheerful getting a phone call from me (“HELP!!!”) at 2 A.M., either.
If you are being detained ask if you can leave. If they say no ask why not. They cannot hold you indefinitely without charging you.
If they arrest you and want to ask you questions to conduct the investigation you demand an attorney and they have to get one. You have a right to be brought before a judge and arraigned within 72 hours. If you are brought before a judge you have an absolute right to an attorney.
Where is this week or month stuff?
I provided links above to a defense attorney and a police detective both saying you should STFU and wait for an attorney. They provide examples of how even innocuous statements you make, statements you are sure can only help you can harm you.
There is nothing wrong with exercising your rights. Even if the police want to make the whole thing as much a pain for you as they can they cannot deny you your rights. Indeed if they are leaning on you that hard I’d say it is an indication they are looking to bust you. If they think you are innocent they’ll probably let you get an attorney without much fuss.
Either way, get an attorney. You are risking everything otherwise merely to avoid some possible inconvenience.
Look in the Yellow Pages or the internet for a lawyer. You need one immediately and most any will suffice. You can switch later if you want (up to a point…this is to have one present at questioning).
Call a friend or family member if you get only one call and have them work it out.
Some people do have attorneys and they know their number. That attorney rarely is a criminal attorney but yours will find you someone who can help if your current situation is not their area of expertise.
Yeah, and there was the incident with the burning, flaming pitch coming off the roof but THAT was an accident and no one was beneath.
Seriously, yes, we have an actual crossbow. And yes, burning pitch off the roof. I am not making this up. Although next time I’m doing repair work on the roof I’ll bring the fire extinguisher up before it’s needed.
Crafter_Man, crossbows are every bit as dangerous as guns, and in Indiana they are actually more strongly regulated. Granted our wannabe truck thief ran off with the bolt my Other Half shot into him, but we have plenty more where that came from.
In short, when we say “we’re going to get medieval on your ass”… we aren’t kidding.
(My bolding). That’s the impression I have, yes. ‘A court-appointed attorney’ will be assigned to you even if nobody you know ever answers their phone.
What’s the alternative? The cops let you go if you tell them it was self-defence?
Thanks for that. Somehow I didn’t think it was ‘the right remain silent as long as you’re prepared to wait in jail for a month, peon.’
If the cops show up to an assault call, and you refuse to tell them what happened, they will arrest you and charge you. What other option do they have?
They do not have to provide you with an attorney. They just have to stop questioning you. Police departments do not provide people with attornies. The state, city, county, federal public defender programs do. They’re not releated. The cops have to wait until they provide you with an attorney.
You will be arraigned before a judge within 72 hours (excluding weekends and holidays). If you have your own attorney they can come to the arraignment. There are attorneys there from the public defender’s office to advise every one of their rights. You will be able to plead guilty or not guilty (some lower courts won’t accept guilty pleas for severe felonies until you’ve seen an attorney. You can choose to say as much or as little to the judge as you want. The public defender will do the best he/she can from what they learned from you in the 15-20 minutes they talked to you before court. The judge can ask you questions, you can choose to answer or not, your attorney can advise. The judge can twist your words just like a cop and your attorney can’t do much at this point. The judge will decide whether or not charges will continue. If they do, the judge will set bond. Later comes depositions, hearings, then trial.
There is nothing wrong with exercising your rights, that is true.
If they arrest you then fine (although I am not convinced they must arrest you then. They might ask you to come to the station tomorrow to answer some questions).
We’ll need an attorney to say for sure but not questioning you puts any case they have in jeopardy. I doubt the prosecutor can build a case on, “Well, the one guy talked and said the other guy did it. The other guy demanded an attorney and we didn’t feel like giving him one so we stopped questioning him. Given the one guy said the other guy did it and the other guy said nothing in his defense we’re going with that.”
In short, you will get an attorney.
Guess it depends where you are. In big cities you can be arraigned on a weekend. Recently the head of the IMF was arraigned on a Saturday (or Sunday).
When you see your attorney in court you can instruct them to contact someone for you. You can then get proper representation.
Apparently you have not watched the videos I linked here. I strongly encourage you to view them. I’d be interested in your opinion after watching them. At least the first one (I think they are very interesting).
Suppose you have a CCW and you are reasonably in fear for your life; you are have to reveal to the police that you are armed and that you have a CCW, don’t you?. If you are physically searched and found to have a gun, aren’t you better off to reveal that fact up front?
The person who accosted you is is dead on the ground, obviously from a gunshot wound and you obviously have a gun in your possession----what then? Are is that a case where you really shut up and say nothing at all?
Never, ever, speak to the police without your lawyer present for a case you are directly involved in (if you witness something and want to give a statement, that’s ok).
In your described situation, your “victim” could just as easily claim that you assulted him for no reason whatsoever. It’s then “he said/he said,” and without any corroborating testimony from a firendly witness, you might be the one getting charged for some kind of felony assault based upon the prima facie evidence that:
You admitted to being in an altercation with the “victim,”
The extent of his injuries (“on the floor, badly injured”)
But also keep in mind that juries are often filled with idiots. There’s a viral audio somewhere of a 911 call where the guy called in to report his neighbor’s house being burglarized, and then when he saw the guys leaving, he ran out and shot them after telling the 911 operator that he would not allow them to get away with it, over the frantic pleas of the 911 operator to stay in his damn house.
He evidently shot them just seconds before the polica arrived, so his action was unnecessary, as if property theft deserves the death penalty anyway. And it turned out he didn’t even know the neighbor, so for all he knew, the guys he shot had permission to go into the house (actually they really were burglars, but the point is that his neighbor might have been on vacation in Mexico, realized he forgot something important (medicine, papers, traveler’s checks, etc.), had not left a key with anybody, but called a friend and told him to go in through the window and fedex the stuff to him).
The shooter sounded like a typical Bubba, but he knew enough to start singing that he had been in fear of his life, and he got off.
They don’t have to build a case, they have to find probable cause. If Guy A (the real attacker) says he was attacked by guy B (the real victim). Guy b says “I’m not going to speak without my attorney”. The cops will arrest Guy B more often than not, especially if there is serious injuries involved. They have a complainant (real attacker pretending to be victim), they have physical evidence (any blood splatter, marks, etc on guy a). That’s enough for probable cause. Guy B then goes to jail, cops go to the next call. Guy b gets arraigned, gets an attorney, and then the investigation continues. The case may very well be thrown out after arraignment. Guy B still spent some time in jail.
You will get an attorney, however a lot of variables effect how quickly you will see one, and how quickly they can do anything for you. We don’t have weekend arraignments where I live, that would help speed up the processes.
I was able to watch the first video. The guy did make some good points. I would hire him should I ever be charged with a crime (If I was, what do you think he would say I did wrong?). It seemed to me like he was dramatizing a little. The idea that every interaction you have with a cop can result with being being convicted of a crime… eh. Many of the examples he gave were for people who were guilty of a crime or mentally ill. Those are exigent circumstances not included in the original question:
Should you talk to the police when claiming self-defense? Personally I think the answer is, it depends on the circumstances.
Scenario A:
I’m drawing money from a night time ATM in the shady part of town. Someone tackles me to the ground and starts punching me. I’m able to kick up with my feet, hit my attacker square in the face, and he falls to the ground. I get up and prepare to fight, and I realize he hit his head and he’s not moving. I call the cops, they come, and my attacker has suffered a major head injury when he fell. I barely have a mark on me.
I would talk to the cops. My card, my wallet, my cash blowing in the breeze. 99.9% of the time I would be going home. I certainly don’t think I could say anything that would sway a cop to arrest me or a jury to convict me of assault.
Scenario B:
I return home after a hard night’s work. My wife (angry at the discovery that I fathered a 10 year old love child with the maid… and even angrier at the discovery that we’ve had a maid for the last 10 years and it obviously wasn’t the house being cleaned), meets me at the door in a wine fueled rage! She launches herself at me with the 10 inch Henckels chef’s knife I bought her for Christmas. In my shock, I side step and trip her, and she falls on the knife.
Lawyer! Lawyer! Lawyer!
So my answer is, it depends.
P.S. the affair in scenario B is fiction. The knife and the fact she would probably meet me at the door is not.
Maybe I’m cold-blooded, but the last part is where I would say you have made a mistake.
If I am attacked, and get him on the ground unconscious, I leave. I don’t call 911, I don’t call an ambulance - I get the hell out of there and never mention it to another person.
Bernie Goetz ran into trouble, not when he shot the guys who were trying to rob him, but when he showed up at the police station and told them he had done the shooting.
He attacked me, I fought him off, it’s over. If the police show up at my door two days later and want to ask me about it, that’s when I lawyer up and still say nothing.
Better not to go thru that. Besides, this guy is likely to be a common criminal anyway - nobody is going to care how he got his ass kicked. What’s he going to do - go to the cops and complain that he tried to rob somebody and lost the fight?
I got more to lose than he does - I got a job and a house and a family. If he tries to rob me and gets the worse of it, BFD.
Heh. And if the assailant had been the one to down you and leave you unconscious, and claimed the same self-defence motive? They’d also be able to walk away?
I don’t think saying ‘I didn’t do it’ works in anything but the Simpsons.
I wouldn’t leave someone in need of medical attention lying there to possibly die. I’d call 911 and leave them to figure out what happened while I get out of there. I’d call my lawyer along the way so he can have someone available to represent me if needed.
I don’t believe this has posted or linked to yet, but you might find the following advice of firearms and criminal law educator, Massad Ayoob, interesting: (This is probably most applicable for those in a U.S. jurisdiction.)
Like Markxxx, I’ve been broke too, and understand what a Hobson’s choice waiting to talk until you get counsel can be.