# Should young children be taught about racism (Black History day)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2012, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116 "2012-10-28T07:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SomeBodyUK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@SomeBodyUK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SomeBodyUK)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/41 "2012-10-29T03:48:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Except in the UK, aren’t racial tensions more between whites and South Asians, rather than whites and Africans? No, I don’t know why you think that. On the whole, white and South Asians get on very well… ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/42 "2012-10-29T03:51:02Z")
> [@SomeBodyUK](#): > > I’m male > No idea, but I can’t remember the name of any black British people who had a similar experience to either of them. > > Barack Obama - UK has never had a black British prime minister > Martin Luther King - there was never a black minister who was as influential as him > Rosa Parks - UK never practiced segregation > Nelson Mandela - UK never had apartheid Thats fair - but I remember a fair amount of “Paki” comments in the 90s when I was doing a lot of business in London. Looks like you had your own Rosa Parks, Paul Stephenson: > **[Civil Rights in the Uk](https://www.civilrightsmovement.co.uk/civil-rights-uk.html)** > > The abuse of the civil rights of non-white immigrants in Britain during the 1950s and 1960s echoed that of African-Americans in America during the same time period. But some of the other articles I looked at mentioned that the UK did not have much non-white immigration until the 1950s - so it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/43 "2012-10-29T04:24:50Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > We pretend that only white people can be racists. No, we don’t. > [@](#): > > We teach children about slavery, but “forget” to mention that Black Africans practiced it long before they came in contact with Europeans, and still practice it today. That’s because most children in the US don’t learn a thing about sub-Saharan African history. That would involve actually featuring something about historical African cultures (other than Egypt) in the curriculum. Most schoolchildren have probably never even seen the word “Bantu”. > [@](#): > > We don’t mention that it was Black Africans who actively went out to capture their neighbours to sell as slaves, not because the nasty Whities told them to, but out of greed for what they could get for selling them. That was mentioned when I went to school. ---
**Author:** ![SomeBodyUK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@SomeBodyUK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SomeBodyUK)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/44 "2012-10-29T04:32:58Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Thats fair - but I remember a fair amount of “Paki” comments in the 90s when I was doing a lot of business in London. > > Looks like you had your own Rosa Parks, **Paul Stephenson** : > [Civil Rights in the Uk](http://www.civilrightsmovement.co.uk/civil-rights-uk.html) > > But some of the other articles I looked at mentioned that the UK did not have much non-white immigration until the 1950s - so it makes sense. Never heard of him. Regarding the word Paki - in my whole life somebody’s said to me probably 4 or 5 times. I never experienced any major issues because of my race in UK. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/45 "2012-10-29T05:19:26Z")
I remember when our social studies teacher gave us a talk on racism when I was in third grade. Apparently someone had used the term “wetback”, and she gave us a lecture about racial slurs, and the history of racism in America. So yeah, it’s NOT too early, not if kids that young are using words like that. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/46 "2012-10-29T05:25:24Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > That’s exactly how my high school students react, and then go to the cafeteria where they sit at tables that look like we’ve assigned seating by race and class. > > Then I feel smug about their lack of self awareness and go have lunch in a teacher’s lounge where we tend to do the same thing. Great post. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/47 "2012-10-29T07:53:29Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Thats fair - but I remember a fair amount of “Paki” comments in the 90s when I was doing a lot of business in London. > > Looks like you had your own Rosa Parks, Paul Stephenson: > [Civil Rights in the Uk](http://www.civilrightsmovement.co.uk/civil-rights-uk.html) > > But some of the other articles I looked at mentioned that the UK did not have much non-white immigration until the 1950s - so it makes sense. If one looks at racial policies in Britain’s colonial empire, there’s probably a lot more stuff to draw from IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/48 "2012-10-29T11:56:25Z")
> [@SomeBodyUK](#): > > Barack Obama - UK has never had a black British prime minister > Martin Luther King - there was never a black minister who was as influential as him > Rosa Parks - UK never practiced segregation > Nelson Mandela - UK never had apartheid These are also milestones for the world (well, the last 3, certainly). It doesn’t matter that they didn’t happen in the UK - they’re still worth learning about. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/49 "2012-10-29T13:54:36Z")
Kids have eyes. Even if you don’t tell them anything about race, they’re still going to wonder why they are brown and that guy is white and that girl has differently shaped eyes, and so on. They’re certainly going to hear about it from their peers (as one of them apparently already has). The only thing that goes away when you pretend it isn’t there is the monster under your bed. > [@Chronos](#): > > Except in the UK, aren’t racial tensions more between whites and South Asians, rather than whites and Africans? It varies by region. In London, no. In the Midlands and the North, yes. Elsewhere, there generally aren’t any significant numbers of nonwhite people. [QUOTE=SomeBodyUK] No, I don’t know why you think that. On the whole, white and South Asians get on very well… [/QUOTE] Maybe in the sense that there are no LA-style South Asian race riots, but it would be misleading to say there are no racial tensions. [QUOTE=Qin Shi Huangdi] If one looks at racial policies in Britain’s colonial empire, there’s probably a lot more stuff to draw from IMHO. [/QUOTE] They made a pretty good film about it. _Ghandi_ or something. However, most Britons justifiably consider the empire as “apart”, and there is remarkably little taught in history classes about that sort of thing. To be fair, there’s remarkably little taught in history classes about any topic in British schools because there’s so much time to cover. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/50 "2012-10-29T16:54:53Z")
> [@SomeBodyUK](#): > > Can I have a hundred bucks please? My brother and sister in law are both Indian. I mentioned that I’m Indian earlier up the thread.:smack: You gotta take all my bets if you take a single one…they’re a package deal. My apologies for the hair-trigger post o’ mine. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/51 "2012-10-29T16:58:22Z")
I was never taught anything about race or civil rights per se in school. Attending a southern high school (in the 70s) that was half black helped form my world view, certainly. I’m pretty sure I was racially abused on a daily basis. 😉 At least, we certainly kept our mouths shut and our heads down to avoid confrontations. The kid may figure out on her own that some folks look different and dress differently, and self-describe as “black” culturally. She may even decide on her own that average behaviour varies according to groups. So I think your concern that “teaching” this (at any age) is misplaced. I don’t think you’ll ever get agreement about what to teach or what age to teach it; like most age dependent topics, it depends on the kids and the teacher. For example, it’s pretty darn popular to teach about the european slave trade; a little less popular to teach about arabs enslaving africans. It would be nice to see all history simply taught as history. Some of the original impetus for “black” this-that-and-the-other was a sense that black history was ignored or improperly presented in mainline textbooks. It seems to me that singling out “black” history for special treatment diminishes the status of blacks, because it makes it look like they have to have some special help to make their story significant. Sort of like having a special ed maths class, for example, or Pulaski Day here in Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/52 "2012-10-29T17:57:28Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > For example, it’s pretty darn popular to teach about the european slave trade; a little less popular to teach about arabs enslaving africans. You have to remember that high school history classes don’t necessarily want to get all academic about history. Their reason for existence is to promote a national narrative to the younger generation, and to some extent, I’m fine with prioritizing that people at least know their own historical origins. The European slave trade is directly relevant to American history. For about half of our (Southern public high school graduate here as well) classmates it answers the question, “how did my family end up here, now?” For everyone it answered the question “why did the South end up the way it is.” Arab slaving isn’t relevant at all to that narrative except as context for European slaving. And yet I think you’ll find that most people who care have some inkling that Arabs and Africans were enslaving Africans before Europeans started enslaving Africans. I was definitely taught so, as early as elementary school. Caveat: Arab slaving would be extremely relevant if the people writing the history curriculum wanted to include African history. But truly they didn’t include European history either so there’s no slight to blacks there. Our classes generally began with Indian cultures and then skipped ahead to the sixteenth century and early colonization. > [@](#): > > It would be nice to see all history simply taught as history. Some of the original impetus for “black” this-that-and-the-other was a sense that black history was ignored or improperly presented in mainline textbooks. > > It seems to me that singling out “black” history for special treatment diminishes the status of blacks, because it makes it look like they have to have some special help to make their story significant. Sort of like having a special ed maths class, for example, or Pulaski Day here in Chicago. I don’t think this is sound, specifically the “makes it look like they have to have some special help.” You’re thinking it has to be adversarial. To answer the OP, yes, they should be taught about racism, forever, in the sense of “don’t hate people for who they are.” The specifics are always open to question but I don’t think there’s anything unusual about young kids in Britain learning about Rosa Parks, if they’ve already rolled through the British icons. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/53 "2012-10-30T22:03:38Z")
As a child in the 70s, I attended an extremely liberal school, and the heavy-handed attempts to teach us about race took the following formats: - black people are just as good as white people (without this, I’d have never thought to question it) and “we” cruelly enslaved them and treat them badly. Look at all the awful stuff we’ve done! Feel guilty, unless you’re a racist jerk! - this land was originally settled by various native tribes, all of which were far more noble, kind, and unwasteful than us. “We” killed them with guns and disease after they welcomed us, and we stole their land. Feel terrible for our selfish, greedy behavior! - Jewish people aren’t like regular white people, and have been horribly mistreated by “us.” Feel sick about what “we” have allowed to occur, unless you’re a Nazi! Even though I was already the victim of the local xenophobia, being of mixed-ethnic heritage, the constant harping on race did not make me feel any better. Most of the students were white, but certainly not all, and the idea that individuals who were not of European descent were somehow “inferior” would never have crossed my mind. We were hammered over and over with all of this guilt we were supposed to feel, and I really don’t think it helped anything. It would have been better never to mention it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/54 "2012-10-31T14:07:27Z")
Hey, **AnaMen** joined just to make that post! I spent most of my early years in an unincorporated area between Houston & Galveston, but attended the Pasadena Independent School District. Pasadena was a [sundown town](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundown_town) in those days. Houston had segregated schools, Pasadena had no need; the Mexican kids counted as white for those purposes. There was little _official_ teaching about racism. Our elementary school music teacher added the last verse of “The Battle Hymn of The Republic” to the end of our annual Christmas pageant–to support civil rights. (I don’t remember if this was widely known in the community.) > [@](#): > > In the beauty of the lilies, Christ was born across the Sea, > With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me; > As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free, > While God is marching on. Even earlier, I repeated the N word at home, learned from my classmates. My grandmother threatened to wash my mouth out with soap if I ever repeated it. I haven’t… Things are better there now. The Mexican-American minority has become the majority, there are some African-American families & a fair number of Asian-Americans… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/55 "2012-10-31T15:25:31Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > We pretend that only white people can be racists. Who is “we”? I know only a very tiny minority of people on the far left fringe in a few colleges who believe that racism is exclusive to whites. Certainly, I have never seen your claim actually taught in schools. > [@Lust4Life](#): > > We teach children about slavery, but “forget” to mention that Black Africans practiced it long before they came in contact with Europeans, and still practice it today. > > We don’t mention that it was Black Africans who actively went out to capture their neighbours to sell as slaves, not because the nasty Whities told them to, but out of greed for what they could get for selling them. We do not teach about Arab slaving for the same reasons that we do not teach about the rise and fall of the Abayassids or the Turks, (or, frankly, the Mings, etc.). Their stories do not progress in a straight line to the European settlement of North America and so get treated rather sketchily or are ignored. As to the slavery of Africa before the intervention of Arabs and Europeans: we also do not talk about intra-European slavery that lasted from pre-Roman times right up until the early Renaissance. It was a different type of slavery and, while we should probably let kids know more about it, it does not have a direct bearing on the trans-Atlantic slave trade. As to Africans capturing Africans for sale to Europeans, that does get mentioned, depending on the level at which one is teaching. It was, after all, the power and wealth that those slave takers amassed that led to much of the early colonial disruption of Africa. (And there is always some guy with a (figurative) white hood in his closet willing to make a big deal about African slave takers if it does not get mentioned loudly enough. Limbaugh and several of his compatriots have gone off on the topic numerous times.) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/56 "2012-10-31T22:09:42Z")
> [@SomeBodyUK](#): > > How old were you when you were taught about race and civil rights in school? Probably junior high school before it really registered. Probably 40 or so before I understood it. > [@Lust4Life](#): > > We pretend that only white people can be racists. > > Some of the biggest racists I’ve met are of none white ethnicities including African descendants. > > I doubt very much that my experience is unique. So tell me again when white people were enslaved by non-whites; when white people were subjected to segregation; or when white people were second class citizens under apartheid? Some black guy disliking you based on the color of your skin is not the same thing as apartheid. You can’t just wave away the history of white racism by pointing your finger at Louis Farrakhan and say “see, they’re just as bad as we are” > [@](#): > > We teach children about slavery, but “forget” to mention that Black Africans practiced it long before they came in contact with Europeans, and still practice it today. > > We don’t mention that it was Black Africans who actively went out to capture their neighbours to sell as slaves, not because the nasty Whities told them to, but out of greed for what they could get for selling them. Are you trying to excuse white slavers for their involvement in slavery because they bought the slaves from black people? > [@](#): > > All to often Black racists use crocodile tears about slavery in history as a stick to beat Whitey with, and stir up race hatred for their own agenda. > > How do we know that they’re crocodile tears ? > Because the people who pretend to be so upset about the plight of people long dead, and angry about other people long dead, do ABSALOUTLY NOTHING about slavery today, even though according to the United Nations there are more actual slaves on the planet then in recorded history. > > Not, indentured workers, or people working in harsh and poorly paid conditions, but actual SLAVES, as in bought and sold. > > Not only do the crocodile weepers make no attempt whatsoever to combat this evil, but they try hard to stifle any mention of it, and become positively abusive and very aggressive to those who do raise the subject. > > It seems to be that Black racists and White racists, play off of each other in a sort of “Mutt and Jeff” parody . > Result African Americans lose out and can become marginalised in main stream society. > > Teaching kids about racism is a very good thing, but all too often the teachings and the teachers are racist themselves, albeit it, not of the White variety. > > White racists tend to be pathetic and not overly intelligent. > > Black racists tend to be more insiduous. > > But the losers always are African Americans. The only way your claim can be true is if you are counting human trafficking [Human trafficking - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking) or some other form ogf ILLEGAL slavery and debt bondage [Debt bondage - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage) But putting that aside, how does that excuse slavery, segregation, apartheid, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/57 "2012-10-31T22:37:40Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > 95% of you don’t have a single non-coworker African-American friend to your name. Or German-American, Polish-American, Chinese-American, or any other kind of -American, for that matter. All of my friends are either co-workers or former co-workers. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/58 "2012-11-02T17:09:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Probably junior high school before it really registered. > > Probably 40 or so before I understood it. > > So tell me again when white people were enslaved by non-whites; when white people were subjected to segregation; or when white people were second class citizens under apartheid? > > Some black guy disliking you based on the color of your skin is not the same thing as apartheid. You can’t just wave away the history of white racism by pointing your finger at Louis Farrakhan and say “see, they’re just as bad as we are” > > Are you trying to excuse white slavers for their involvement in slavery because they bought the slaves from black people? > > The only way your claim can be true is if you are counting human trafficking [Human trafficking - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking) or some other form ogf ILLEGAL slavery and debt bondage [Debt bondage - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage) > > But putting that aside, how does that excuse slavery, segregation, apartheid, etc.? Touched a sore nerve did we ? Judging by ther number of strawmen that you’ve erected. Same old tactics. Always the same when we burst the bubble of “Its only Whitey who can be racist”. A couple of quick points. White people were enslaved by Arabs from at least the Middle ages up until possibly the 19th c, though in not so large numbers as Africans, because Europeans tended not to attack their neighbours for the sole purpose of capturing slaves for sale as the Africans did. (Though undoubtedly it did happen IMO) Western nations made slavery illegal a long time ago, and many White people died making that so, but Africans still practice the enslavement of their own people, right now, right this instant, right while you’re reading this post . So why are you acting so indignantly about long dead people while acting as an apologist for present day slavers ? Let alone publicising the fate of todays slaves and actually DOING something about it ! Could it be because the present day slavers are Black Africans ? That the “outrage” at slavery is merely a stick to beat Whitey with, rather then any genuine sentiment concerned with the plight of human beings who are enslaved ? The number of crocodile tears shed by Black racists on this subject could allow me to make a full set of politically incorrect luggage, plus matching crocodile skin belt and shoes. I of course do not include you personally amongst the ranks of Black racists, using slavery as a political pretext. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/59 "2012-11-04T23:36:05Z")
> [@SomeBodyUK](#): > > I called my UK based 8 year old niece and asked her about school. She said that her school had a “black history day”. She was taught about Rosa Parks, Nelson Mandela, Barack Obama and Martin Luther King. She was also taught about the slave trade. > > I was shocked to her say words like “black” and “white” to describe people. My brother and sister-in-law never talk about race in front of their kids & it surprised me to hear somebody so young use these terms. > > I understand that teaching kids and about racism and civil rights is a good thing, but she only just turned 8! Don’t you think that it’s a bit too young? Personally I don’t think it’s a good idea to put ideas in very young kids heads about race - they begin to see others in different ways. > > How old were you when you were taught about race and civil rights in school? Wow, instilling a sense of guilt and victimisation early in the UK. To balance it out you could refer her to this talk on a Marae discussing Pakeha (NZ european) whakapapa (ancestry). > [@](#): > > My name is Jim Traue. > > I was born in Auckland. > > … > > My ancestors of the mind include the men and women with whom I studied; the men and women with whom I have worked; the great leaders in librarianship, Geoffrey Alley and Graham Bagnall in New Zealand, who have been my mentors;Lawrence Clark Powell, Archibald McLeish, Paul Raabe, some of my heroes from overseas. > > They include the man whose cloak has been passed down to me, Alexander Turnbull the collector, who built a great library to comprehend the European, Polynesian and Maori inheritances of this country. > > A man who believed that the writings of the Englishman John Milton in the seventeenth century were as relevant to New Zealanders as the written records of our past in New Zealand; the histories of Maori traditional beliefs, the records of European settlement in New Zealand, our distinctive New Zealand literature and history. > > Behind every one of them, and the source of their ideas and their values, is the great culture which belongs to all of us, the culture of Western European peoples, the culture of what was once called Christendom. > > My ancestors of the mind, nay, our ancestors of the mind, are all those men and women, most of them long dead, who recorded in their books the ideas and values of that culture, a culture going back some 3000 years. > > Our ancestors of the mind include the great thinkers of Ancient Greece. > > The dramatists Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides. > > The poet Homer. > > The scientists Archimedes and Ptolemy. > > The mathematicians Euclid and Pythagoras. > > The historians Herodotus and Thucydides. > > The philosophers and moralists Socrates and Plato and Aristotle. > > All believed in the importance of ideas, the power of ideas. > > All believed that the highest purpose of humanity was to define the nature of truth, beauty, and justice. > > Our ancestors of the mind include the poets and essayists, historians, political philosophers, architects, engineers of Ancient Rome: > > Terence, Horace, Livy, Cicero, Virgil, Ovid, Seneca, Catullus, Plutarch, Lucretius, Pliny, Tacitus. > > And the jurists of Rome who attempted to lay the basis for laws to guarantee justice, fairness and equality of treatment for all. … > > Our ancestors of the mind include the great army of thinkers and writers of the new societies created within the last 1000 years in Europe and beyond in the Americas and Africa and the Pacific. > > The ‘tribes’ of Western tradition, as it were, who drew on the ideas and values of Greece, Rome, the Hebrews and the Christians, and on each other, to develop their own cultures and values. > > We may, of course, be grievously mistaken. > > But those of us who belong to the western tradition believe that reason and natural justice are the right tools to deal with the world. > > We see the human condition in terms of problems to be tackled. > > We believe that wrongs should be put right. > > That progress is always worth the struggle. > > Mysticism and resignation leave us puzzled. > > But this concept of duty coexists with the conviction that the interests of the individual must be protected, even against the state itself. > > We believe that the life of the mind and the need for action have equal claims. > > We like to think we are tolerant of the views of others. > > Ours is a written tradition. > > And because it has been a written culture for 3,000 years the knowledge and the wisdom of 3,000 years of experience has accumulated in our libraries and our archives and our books. > > And it belongs to everyone of us. > > … > Our ancestors of the mind are innumerable, encompassing many races and religions and times and places. > > And their ideas, their creations, are available to me and to you, to everyone, in millions of books that fill our libraries… > > I am proud of my ancestors, my ancestors of the mind, as proud as any Maori is of his ancestors. > > I have listed only a tiny fraction of them by name. > > There are countless millions who, by recording their experience in some permanent form, have become my ancestors of the mind, who have in some way contributed to making me what I am. > > That is my genealogy, that is my whakapapa. > **[Pakeha Whakapapa | Kiwiblog](https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/11/pakeha_whakapapa.html)** > > John Ansell has blogged something lovely from Jim Traue, the former chief librarian of the Alexander Turnbull Library on his Pakeha Whakapapa. The background to his piece: A short time ago I spent a weekend on a marae. It was the Ngati Raukawa marae... ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116/60 "2012-11-05T00:45:12Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Wow, instilling a sense of guilt and victimisation early in the UK. That is a pretty silly claim. Nothing in the OP talks about anything that would instill a sense of guilt or victimization. Your response comes across as psychological projection. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-young-children-be-taught-about-racism-black-history-day/639116.md?page=4)