Shouldn't ghetto folks be given a break?

Great Debates
81

[QUOTE=Zoe]
I’m not going to take that personally. Will not…Will not…

Well, actually, I think there is probably a general misunderstanding about teachers in inner city schools. You can’t pay us enough to teach there. Either we do it because we are new to the system and don’t have enough seniority or we do it because that’s where we want to teach. We had some teachers there who were not so good and we had some who were quite gifted.

…

No offense to you intended at all, but the notion of “throwing money” at public schools is so unreal to me that you might as well be talking about throwing water on a desert. Perhaps it is different elsewhere, but what I have seen is terribly broken and beyond repair. We need a new concept for public education.

Don’t want to hijack, please.

[/QUOTE]

Would you consider starting an “ask the inner-city school teacher” thread? I think we could all learn a lot from you.

82

The discussion of the black community being lacking in the inner city has left me with many question marks. I would like to preface by saying that the last time I lived in the “inner-city” (ghetto) I was under 6 so my memory is not exactly crystal. Despite the implications of several posters who have cited a lack of family or community cohesion as a primary problem, experience has shown me that the people who are the worst off, often reside in the more closely knit communities.

I was born in a neighborhood where everyone looked out for everyone else. It was a terrible area that was overrun with crime but we all knew and spoke to each other. This is a sharp contrast to the town that I grew up in where most people did not know their neighbor two houses down. The increase in socio-economic status brought with it an increased emphasis on isolated living, which is an unfortunate side effect of the suburban town design.

In my opinion, the blame should be focused more on the media and popular culture. Blacks are portrayed as “street smart” and independent with emphasis being placed on their physical abilities. Athletes and other entertainers are revered as the pinnacle for black achievement. Children look up to people who drop 50 points in 4 consecutive games or score 3 touchdowns a night. They are not taught to value people who lead in assists or those who silently lead their teams to victory. They are not taught the value of earning a living being average. Everything is showy and flashy and they are taught to value fast rewards. Even intelligent black children are encouraged to go after these rewards despite having shown other aptitudes.

It always amazes me that my aunts and uncles pushed me to play a D-1 sport so that I could “get that good money”. I could never understand why they thought I should go to school on athletic scholarship after my cousin played D-1 basketball on a full ride only to blow out his knee then gamble his way out of a scholarship and school. Despite this, and many other in-family athletic failures, all of my non-immediate family told me to go to school for sports instead of merit.

I hate this attitude and its prevalence in the black community. I do not understand why learning is so undervalued. Unfortunately, I also do not believe that increasing the emphasis on the importance of education would remedy the situation.

People from disadvantaged neighborhoods who attend poor school districts are instantly put in an unfair situation. It is as if they are participating in a 200m dash but starting at the 250m mark. Sure they can catch some of the slower people if they are natural runners, but it is not likely. I see all of these disadvantages by looking at my own experience with education.

I attended one of the top public school systems in the nation and as a result, was given a considerable advantage over people who attended high schools that were either at or below average. People often discuss their reluctance to extend multiple chances to the urban poor but they neglect to realize (or acknowledge) the many chances that are handed to the middle and upper classes. I can say that I have worked very hard throughout my life but I will never be able to say that no one gave me second chances. My school offered the full range of AP classes in addition to a plethora of Honors course to prepare you for the AP level. They handed out SAT prep classes that were comparable to $1000 test prep programs for $100 and less. These are opportunities that my cousins and friends never even came close to seeing. The question that I ask myself is not why do other blacks not receive the same opportunities but instead, why don’t all blacks who receive these opportunities succeed?

Out of roughly 25 black male students in my year and the two years below us, only 4 of us went to college. 2 went to community college and 2 of us went to 4-year universities (Those interested in AA would find it noteworthy that we both attended the same undergraduate school. He is now in medical school and I am finishing the 4th year of a 5-year program). To me this is the best indicator of an issue that is deeper than community and family values. There is something greater at play that manages to cross the socio-economic divider. Personally, I believe that it is that damned glorification of quick money. Only when people stop feeding this nonsense to their children, will they be able to achieve a chance at equality.

83

[QUOTE=Venus Hottentot]
To Fessie, Whoa! I think we have a misunderstanding here! I brought up my race only in regards to the topic, poor, ghetto blacks.
[/QUOTE]

Well ok. It seemed to me that YOU were asking for a break. I thought perhaps your OP was an experiment.

It still strikes me as a deliberate example of the phenomenon you’re discussing. I thought that was interesting, but whatever.

84

Chronic health issues were mentioned briefly as a factor - studies cite a very strong correlation between poor physical AND mental health, and poverty.

Asthma, for example, that’s an easy one to research. Industrial and sewage plants are usually located on the poor side of town, asthma rates are climbing among urban dwellers, children are at increased risk of asthma (probably because they spend so much time indoors now), and poor people often lack access to routine health care and maintenance drugs that can keep asthma under control. Urban dwellers’ hospitalization and mortality rates for asthma are many times higher than suburbanites.

I started to link to articles on mental illness and poverty, but there are so many of them, I didn’t know where to start. Nothing I found says “X causes X”, it’s all correlational and it’s a chicken-and-the-egg phenomenon. Are they depressed because they can’t find a job, or are they unemployed because they’re depressed?

But then when you consider that kids, children, are surrounded by adults who are not functioning at their best due to mental illness, how can you measure that effect? Where does it begin and end? Their normal, everyday reality is being around adults who are not healthy - if everyone you know is sick, how do you learn what “well” looks like?

And tack on the fact that poor neighborhoods are short on things like grocery stores - there was a recent piece on this issue in Chicago, when they closed Dominicks on the west side. You’ve got fast food outlets on every corner, but the grocery stores are gone.

Philosophical arguments are one thing – look, just look at the physical reality.

85

[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas]
Does giving people something for nothing ever work? If a black person is given a break to get into college and fails, should they then be given another break at another college? How long should these breaks go on?

At some point you have to face the real world, where nobody gets nothing for free
[/QUOTE]

One of the most interesting days in my Confirmation Catechesis was one when we got a visit from an officer of La Romaní, the local Gipsies association. It was mostly Q&A.

She mentioned that when they started working with city hall to get literacy classes geared specifically for the Roma, City Hall wanted to make them free and it was the association who said “no, no, that won’t work. We have to put a price on it. Our people won’t appreciate it if it’s free, but if they’ve paid as little as fifty cents, they will come.” The trick worked; in the three years those classes had been running, they’d gone from getting a dozen and a half students to having to turn people down from lack of space. A classmate of mine had to fight her parents to be able to finish her EGB (compulsory education, which back then was 8th grade) and would not have been able to do so if her intended hadn’t also said he thought it was a good idea (he’d dropped out during 4th grade, much more common); 25 years later it’s unremarkable to have Roma in college.

86

[Quote=Chief Pedant]
If you don’t think the overwhelming majority of Americans aren’t already aching for the ghetto class, and desperately wanting them to succeed, the mote in your eye is a log, and is blinding you. The notion that blacks are trapped in the ghetto because the majority of the country is racist is pure bullshit. There are many Americans who have overcome odds. The color of any of their skin is incidental to their success or failure.
[/quote]
I would have a slightly different response to this statement than Hippy Hollow provided. I would agree with you that the ghettoes do not continue simply because the country is racist. I do not believe that anyone sets out to hold people captive in ghettoes, particularly due to race.

On the other hand, I think a claim that any significant portion of the country is despearate to see people escape the ghetto is unsubstantiated–and insubstantial.
Look at the response to Katrina–even on this “liberal” message board. When the first distorted reports of violence began to show up, several of us pointed out that, historically, reports of violence following natural disasters are overreported. Most of us were shouted down with claims that “those people” had changed the rules of human behavior. When the actual news of what happened was finally reported–with no evidence of massive rape and murder coming out of the Superdome–there was no rush to recant their first claims and no apologies for having allowed themselves to be misled. There is a general apathy, mixed with a feeling of “thank God I’m not that way” expressed by the multitude of Americans regarding those who are trapped in the inner city.

It is not explicit racism that keeps the mandatory penalties for crack cocaine ten times worse than the penalties for powder cocaine when crack is the favored distribution method of the ghetto and the equally addicting powder the favored distribution method of the suburbs. It is not explicit racism that the DEA concentrates their efforts on busting crack dealers (where they can earn more brownie points for making busts with longer sentences), leaving the powder trade to state agencies who are enforcing state laws that are generally less harsh than those of the panic-driven Feds. Rather, it is simply an apathetic lack of concern on the part of Congress to reconsider stupid decisions from nearly 20 years ago that impose more harm than good on the ghettoes. It is an apathetic lack of concern among drug enforcement agencies–that need to make high quotas for busts–that really pay little attention to the effect that distorted laws and enforcement have resulted in a 25% felony incarceration rate for kids in the ghetto (while similar numbers of suburban kids plead out of lesser charges for crimes that have the same effect on society).

It is not explicit racism that causes banks to set lending practices that place housing loans out of the reach of most ghetto residents or penalizes them for having the temerity to seek home improvement loans on “bad” property. The banks are simply looking to protect their investments. However, it is a serious form of apathy that allows them to employ more imaginative financing options in the suburbs (or even in the Third World, (e.g. microcredit and microloans)) than they employ in U.S. ghettoes.

It is also not explicit racism, (certainly not from the outside “white” establishment) that causes so many kids in the ghetto to condemn their peers who try to get an education for “acting white.” That is not even a problem that white outsiders can fix as it must be addressed from within the community. On the other hand, it appears to indicate a certain apathy on the part of other members of the (overall) black community who do not challenge that attitude.

I do not think explicit racism is “holding down” the people in the ghetto; I do think that there is far too much apathy (among all segments of U.S. society) that permit institutional racism and self-defeating attitudes to persist and I see no examples of anyone explicitly hoping that those in the ghetto will succeed in overcoming their plight.

87

[QUOTE=monstro]
I don’t think the “exceptions” you talk about rose above their circumstances by their bootstraps. No one does this, despite the rhetoric. Folks with success stories had a community to support them. […]
[/QUOTE]

That’s not true. I couldn’t say what the percentage is, but I know that my dad at least did it by pulling himself up through reading books and just wanting to “get out” of the situation he was in. And given that a large percentage of people at the top who are self-made men do talk about pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps, I would be inclined to trust that they probably really did.

But anyways…

Personally I would argue that Affirmative Action and the Martin Luther King path of trying to not make waves are two of the facilitators to the current situation (obviously, the sublying cause would be slavery itself.) For hundreds of years, slaves got free food, a free job, and were told to stay quiet and not cause any fuss. They were taught that this was right. Affirmative action and the peaceful co-existence doctrine (as opposed to a more stick-to-your guns and kick white ass one) are essentially no difference from what was being taught to the slaves. So it’s no real mystery that slave-think would continue.

Now, I do think that the black ghettos do need to be focussed on as a specific issue (rather than encompassed by welfare, etc.), but I wouldn’t recommend anything like giving more money or more free work.

I think that a lot of what is needed is simple marketting. Advertising targetting the people in the ghettos that says, “You can do it!” and tries to convince them that they really can.

Probably another thing that needs to happen is for areas like this to be somehow split up (if feasibly possible) so that everyone you know doesn’t have the same can’t-do mentality.

But mostly what would probably need to happen would be to really focus on the schools, trying to get the classes as small as possible and strict. Tell them that they are going to become doctors and scientists and just stick to your guns on it for twenty years.

Really you just need to focus on getting one generation of this one small percentage of the US to believe in themselves and to have the capabilities to do it. That is possible, and it will cost a lot of money, but it wouldn’t be a continuation of the cycle like what we’ve got now.

88

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
By dropping any reference to the issue of the topic beling limited to people in the ghetto, and supporting the claim of Eleusis that a statement about people in the ghetto was inherently racist you implied it was an issue of any or all blacks.
[/quote]
Nah, you’re just making shit up.

The statement, as you mention, was explicitly about people in the ghetto. The notion that it should be extended to all blacks is your mistake.

Same shit here -

Since I was so careful to define AA as “only quotas and lowered standards”, no doubt you can cut and paste the lines in this thread in which I did so. Or else you are lying, and can’t.

Right, and your comment was wrong. I was responding to a remark clearly limiting the discussion to ghetto blacks, as I have posted (twice).

It’s not an observation, it’s a strawman. You are making up shit and assigning it to me. Especially since your response to a remark about ghetto blacks is to post-

To which I repeat -

Regards,
Shodan

89

[QUOTE=Renob]
In terms of money, most urban school districts get a lot of funding but do very poorly. Washington, D.C., has a very high per-pupil spending ratio and has some of the worst schools in the nation. The urban school districts in Ohio also have high per-pupil funding and do incredibly awful. It’s simply a myth that we are “underfunding” urban schools. We give them a ton of money and they still do an incredibly crappy job.

As far as giving ghetto people a break, I say absolutely not. This also extends to poor white people who have the same cultural patterns (I grew up in a poor rural setting, and the people there and the people in the ghetto have a very, very similar culture). People whose culture inculcates failure need to be told that this culture is crap and that the behavior that it spawns will not be tolerated. By trying to “give them a break” and indulge their bad behavior, we merely encourage it. Our media and our policymakers need to stop glorifying ghetto culture and providing excuses for it. Maybe then we can start trying to move people out of the mindset that traps them there for generations.
[/QUOTE]

When is ghetto culture glorified? You’re partially right in the case of D.C.'s school district. That would be an example of simply throwing money at the problem. The problem in that case, and admittedly, I don’t know a whole lot about the Washington D.C. public school district, is more of a systemic problem. We might want to toss D. C.'s system out as an example of an extreme and focus on the rest.

I think the person that created this thread was struggling with the words that they wanted to use. I’m not so sure that picking on semantics is going to get us anywhere.

Additionally, welcome to the boards (if you’re still reading).

90

Zoe, I’m all with you on blowing the entire thing up and trying to figure out something new. The problem is that you’ll have a lot of people that want to get their hands into it that have no business in there. It’s not hopeless, but it’s going to take something drastic to hapen before people lose their apathy.

I see it more or less along the line of taxes. I’m curious to see how a flat tax would work in real life, but if we got rid of the tax code and rewrote it, the people writing it would likely create loopholes for their rich constituents, and would probably be worse for America than the regular tax code and its current warts.

I spoke to a guy I worked with about schooling. He did the inner-city schooling in East L.A. and said that it was almost surreal. It took him 30 years of experience to get through it. Every day, he said, his in-class authority was challenged. The kids there didn’t have any educational role models, i.e. there were no good students to make a good example of. The same kids that were in his class 15 minutes before the bell? 15 minutes, they were being frisked by the police and drugs were found on them. That school was more of a social exercise, not an educational one.

Welcome, strawberrygirl!

91

[QUOTE=Zoe]
The desire for instant gratification (which includes frivolous spending) and the tendency toward aggressive behaviors are generally natural in children until they are learn that other ways work better. You have only to observe any two or three-year-old.

But who is discouraging learning and teamwork? As for eloquence and manners, I’ve seen kids turn them on and off at will.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure I’m seeing your point here. Are you saying that urban youths are “emotional toddlers” for some reason? It certainly would be an interesting proposition, if in fact they are slowed in such development by lack of family connections, poor schooling, and other general support. Unfortunetly at some point you are expected to support yourself, and make your own sound fiscal decisions. I doubt anyone would get behind the idea of a bank playing nanny to young urban men and women because they tend to spend unwisely.

As for your second point, if they can turn theirn manners on and off at will, then there is no reason for me to cut them ANY slack in ANY social interaction. If they know better then there isn’t any excuse you can give me to justify obnoxious or innappropriate behaviour.

On a side note, I was stunned when I had the oppurtunity to vist FAMU for a day. Nearly everyone there, including those who were “thugged out” was polite and courteous to me. My only conclusion was that all the ghetto tough bravado is a complete and utter front put up to intimidate others. Perhaps in compensation for feeling inadequate in other areas. In an environment where there was almost no one of any other ethnicity, everyones attitude seemed downright pleasant.

92

[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]
When is ghetto culture glorified?
[/quote]

Turn on MTV any day of the week and you’ll see it glorified. Listen to any rap music and chances are you’ll hear it glorified.

Except DC isn’t unique. It’s pretty common. Most urban school districts have a lot of money. They just do an incredibly poor job of educating kids. Part of that certainly lies with the parents of the children, who may not value education. But part of that is also with the school district.

Anyone claiming that we need to help urban kids by giving more money to schools knows absolutely nothing about education.

I wasn’t arguing over semantics. I was simply disagreeing with the notion that we should somehow overlook the problems created by people in the ghetto (and their counterparts outside of the ghetto). We certainly should not do that. We need to condemn the ghetto lifestyle and show the people living there that their way of life is a crappy one doomed to failure.

I come from a rural area that exhibits almost the same pathologies as any ghetto. My family did not buy into the dominant culture of the area, where people didn’t value education, wasted money on trivial things, didn’t have a good work ethic, were violent, used drugs and alcohol to excess, scammed government programs, etc. Because I could see how crappy this culture was, I was able to get out. My friends, for the most part, did not and now they have pretty bad lives.

We should not be looking for reasons to excuse the behavior of these folks. We need to be saying that this type of behavior is unacceptable.

93

[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]
That school was more of a social exercise, not an educational one.

[/QUOTE]

This problem is not exclusive to inner-city schools. I spent eight years as an active volunteer in my local public school district, and still maintain strong friendships with teachers in the district (and have a daughter of my own in the system still - she’s in 11th grade.) Even before NCLB, the public school system in general was a social service, not an educational institution, and it’s gotten worse with NCLB in place.

When a school system is providing the bulk of social services to a community AND trying to get kids to pass standardized tests, it’s a miracle that anyone gets anything resembling an education.

And here too is an argument for the folks who are currently stuck in ghetto situations - there are private and parochial schools that can provide more education and fewer social services, but they’re pricey. Affluent folks can easily get their kids into these schools; poorer folks, not so much. One local college-prep school offers scholarships, but they’re extremely hard to come by (I believe the limit is two per class year) and essentially, you’ve got to be both extremely brilliant AND dirt-poor to even apply for that.

There’s a ridiculous amount of classism in my local school district. The elementary schools are “neighborhood” schools, so you’ve got a very distinct divide in financial terms. One school in the area had a surplus in their fundraising account of over $30,000, but when asked to donate 10% of that to a neighboring school, we got the “but those aren’t OUR kids” argument. Then the kids from both elementary schools went to the same middle school, where the poorer kids BECAME “our” kids, and all of a sudden the parents were wigging out because their kids were in classes with kids who hadn’t gotten as good a base education, and THEIR kids were being held back so the others could catch up.

It’s enough to make you want to puke, seriously. There are small, nearly negligible things that could make a huge difference, but people are so self-interested and self-involved that it takes a huge crisis to get anything accomplished.

94

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
<big snip; full quote above>

I do not think explicit racism is “holding down” the people in the ghetto; I do think that there is far too much apathy (among all segments of U.S. society) that permit institutional racism and self-defeating attitudes to persist and I see no examples of anyone explicitly hoping that those in the ghetto will succeed in overcoming their plight.
[/QUOTE]

Overall, well said. Thanks for the thoughtful comments.

We do not agree, you and I, on the pervasiveness of “institutional racism” but addressing that would probably hijack this thread too far afield.

To the point of apathy:

I think I do agree with you on the existence of apathy. When I said, “…the overwhelming majority of Americans (are) already aching for the ghetto class, and desperately wanting them to succeed…” I did not mean to suggest where their activism was, but where their hearts are.

It is my personal opinion that the hearts of most Americans are not ugly; not racist; not antagonistic toward the oppressed, of any color or clan. That is not to say, as I have posted many times, that we are not instinctively protective of our own clans, however one may define that. My own observation is that on average we are able to move past that atavistic selfishness and give the disadvantaged a leg up, whatever clan they represent. I personally believe that on average this willingness is a result of a genuine heart and not a grudging nod toward governmental policy.

I do agree that the plight of the ghetto does not consume the daily thoughts of those not living in it, and I guess I am willing to to accept the pejorative “apathy” as a descriptive that can be applied.

I suspect we may disagree on the causes from which that apathy derives. Broadly speaking, I believe that most Americans have a sense of helplessness–hopelessness?–when it comes to fixing the ghetto. If one takes the position (as I believe Venus has) that the ghetto’s condition derives from American history and past or present policy, it would be reassuring, at least, to see the same populations (typically, but not exclusively, black) thriving elsewhere in places where that history and those policies never existed. If Sweden, for instance, has no history of slavery or racist policies, the expectation should be that the African-descended refugee population there is thriving, well on its way to becoming a fully functional integral part of the culture, and within a generation of being indistinguishable from any other immigrant population. Let us hope that happens, and becomes a showcase for the issue.

I do want to be sensitive about blaming the individual born to the ghetto. It’s a raw deal, and so are a number of other external circumstances that come into our lives. But I think the broader apathy derives from a sense that only the ghetto population collectively can help get rid of the ghetto. It is not going to happen from without, period, in my opinion. For me, at least, the notion that I “permit…self-defeating attitudes…” (see your full quote) is in itself, a destructive attitude because it promotes the notion that I am to blame for what another individual has decided to think about themselves. It is such a passive and patronizing view that in and of itself it promotes the very problem it is trying to ameliorate: “This ghetto is someone else’s fault–even what this population thinks is your fault. Come in and fix the damage you have done.”

Americans are not neither apathetic nor begrudging toward giving a leg up to any individual willing to take personal responsibility, in answer to Venus’ question. They are skeptical about whether or that’s going to help the broader ghetto populations.

95

[QUOTE=Shodan]
Right, and your comment was wrong. I was responding to a remark clearly limiting the discussion to ghetto blacks, as I have posted (twice).
[/QUOTE]
Sure. You responded to that statement as though it were a claim about all blacks in order to dismiss the question as racist:

45 years ago, nearly 100% of all urban blacks (and the smaller number of suburban blacks) lived in ghettoes. Today, the number of blacks living in ghettoes is a minority of the urban/suburban black population. Clearly, blacks, as a group, have succeeded in moving out of the ghettoes. So when a question is posed asking whether it is approporiate to give a(n undefined) “break” to those who remain in the ghetto, simply asking the question is not, in and of itself, racist and claiming that it is a racist question because other groups have made it out, (ignoring that blacks have also made it out when most of them have), is changing the topic.

[QUOTE=Shodan]
Since I was so careful to define AA as “only quotas and lowered standards”, no doubt you can cut and paste the lines in this thread in which I did so. Or else you are lying, and can’t.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Shodan]
Affirmative action reinforces racist beliefs in a couple of ways.
[ul][li]The first is what I mentioned - AA is based on the belief that blacks are different from all other disadvantaged minorities, in that they cannot be expected to overcome their cultural background. Chinese immigrants, who suffer from many of the same disadvantages as blacks (historical discrimination, physical markers of race, family break up) tend to rise. But blacks, it is assumed, can’t. Why is that?[/li][li]A black person admitted (for instance) to a university for which she is not as well qualified as her class mates will tend to do less well. It is difficult for her class mates to see her falling behind, and not attribute it to race. Not impossible, but difficult.[/ul][/li][/quote]
First, AA is not aimed only at blacks, so your whole argument is silly. Second, there is nothing in outreach programs or targeted recruitment that implies that the people so assisted are not capable of overcoming their background; it implies only that there is some barrier that can best be overcome through affirmative action. (Given that Chinese are also beneficiaries of AA, I am not quite sure what you hoped to assert with your first point.) Your second point presupposes quotas or lowered qualifications. Those are only part of AA (and were only added to AA around ten years after it began, so they are not an inherent part of it).

By referring only to quotas and lowered standards in the absence of the other options employed in AA after making a sweeping statement that “AA reinforces racist beliefs” you are effectively defining AA as only quotas and lowered standards.

Demanding to know what sort of “break” is meant by the question of the OP allows us to examine whether that break is effectrive or approporiate. Dismissing the entire question as racist (especially when it is not) is simply a way to avoid the question.

96

[QUOTE=Venus Hottentot]

To Omega, the reason I chose my username is a long story. Suffice it to say, I believe Sarah was a beautiful woman.
[/QUOTE]

She was. However, your username isn’t without controversy. There’s a thread about it now , that I started.

97

[QUOTE=msmith537]

So, I guess, my off the cuff answer, is that the elements of the black community that are successful needs to take more responsibility in helping its own.
[/QUOTE]

Why? Why are ghetto blacks successful blacks’ “own”? Because you said so? If successful blacks want to be altruistic and spend their resources (as in time, energy, and consciousness, as well as finances) helping ghetto blacks, that’s great, but why should they be uniquely burdened with the expectation of doing so, above everyone else in the country? There’s no reason that they should be thought to have any connection with people from the ghetto, and expectations to the contrary only foster destructive resentment (and rightfully so, IMHO).

98

[QUOTE=Chief Pedant]
For me, at least, the notion that I “permit…self-defeating attitudes…” (see your full quote) is in itself, a destructive attitude because it promotes the notion that I am to blame for what another individual has decided to think about themselves. It is such a passive and patronizing view that in and of itself it promotes the very problem it is trying to ameliorate: “This ghetto is someone else’s fault–even what this population thinks is your fault. Come in and fix the damage you have done.”
[/QUOTE]
I am in basic agreement with this statement, (along with your helpless/hopeless remark, earlier).

I do not think that society at large, (whether or not defined as “white” society) can come in and fix the problems. I do think that society, at large, could go further toward removing some of the institutional barriers that make it more difficult for people to escape, but I also think that the black community needs to do more to make much of that happen. Without claiming that the black community needs to slavishly follow the words of Bill Cosby, (or the similar words of Jesse Jackson in the early 1970s before he wandered off in other directions), I think that those words should be a central part of the discussion within the black community and it is disappointing that we generally see those statements quoted only by whites on the extremes, using them to condemn the black community or using them to condemn Cosby.

99

[QUOTE=pizzabrat]
Why? Why are ghetto blacks successful blacks’ “own”? Because you said so? If successful blacks want to be altruistic and spend their resources (as in time, energy, and consciousness, as well as finances) helping ghetto blacks, that’s great, but why should they be uniquely burdened with the expectation of doing so, above everyone else in the country? There’s no reason that they should be thought to have any connection with people from the ghetto, and expectations to the contrary only foster destructive resentment (and rightfully so, IMHO).
[/QUOTE]
This is a legitimately tough question.

On the one hand, it is eminently unfair to ask a person to sacrifice his or her own time, money, experience to help any other person just because of a perceived similarity between those persons. The “credit to his race” concept is an abomination.

On the other hand, it was exactly that sort of “we help our own” attitude that got any immigrant groups out into society. A person might be prompted to help those similar to oneself out of a simple sense of belonging; a person might also do it because he or she knows that (many in) the group will not listen to or accept help from “outsiders.”

It is an unfair burden to place on any individual to order that person to spend their resources in a particular way. It is also a fact of life that some resources will simply be more effective than others. I do not believe that anyone has the right to point to an individual and say “You should be helping your kind.*” I also believe that most of the best help will only occur through associations (as it already works, for example, in the “good ol’ boy” networks).
The kid with a series of misdemeanors who is considering stepping into the “big time” by taking up drug distribution is every bit as much my brother, (or my fellow citizen, if the word brother bothers anyone), as he is the brother/fellow citizen of Bill Gates or Snoop Dogg. If the kid is an inner city black kid, which among us has a better chance of reaching that kid to keep him out of crime?**

  • (Let’s stipulate that there are any number of definitions for “own kind” and not get bogged down in defining which "kind’ we’re discussing.)
    **And I picked Snoop Dogg specifically because he has chosen to invest his resources in trying to improve the lot of folks in the inner city.
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[QUOTE=tomndebb]

The kid with a series of misdemeanors who is considering stepping into the “big time” by taking up drug distribution <snip>
[/QUOTE]

…is getting exactly the sort of leg up that we’re talking about, albeit very much in the wrong direction. Granted, my sole exposure to gang culture is through news reports, hearsay and mystery novels, but isn’t it commonly held that gangs have been able to get a toehold into poor communities because they do replace the family heirarchal (I KNOW I spelled that wrong) structure that is often missing?

Have Denzel Washington’s efforts to promote the Boys & Girls Clubs had any positive impact?