# Shouldn't History be paired with Literature, rather than Government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936 "2019-07-31T17:23:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/41 "2019-08-01T10:37:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m sorry, are you saying the pre-Columbian natives subdivided\* Great South Bay\* along ownership lines? Yes, it is very likely this is true. Got an address, I’ll Google Earth it! * * * ETA: Okay, look further South, where it narrows to wetlands. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/42 "2019-08-01T10:40:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There is no “before” and “after” - plenty of archaeology gets done on literate societies. It’s a case of only mildly-overlapping magisteria. Well, if there are documents, it’s “History” not Archaeology, no? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/43 "2019-08-01T10:48:32Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > Well, if there are documents, it’s “History” not Archaeology, no? You were talking about going to a house etc… And no need to go to Google Earth, I assume you’re talking about the drainage channels on the barrier islands. The _modern_ mosquito control drainage channels. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/44 "2019-08-01T10:57:09Z")
> [@King of the Americas](#): > > I had no idea that History only begins with written/primary sourced data. Anything before this is of course Archaeology. You’re missing the point. History with a big H (which could be loosely defined as “that collective sum of knowledge and data points about how past humans lived, what they did and possibly why”) includes archaeology as a matter of course ; history with a small h (the academic scientific discipline) however is very primarily based on textual analysis, yes. Some representations as well, but mostly the written word, by definition. That’s why we used to call everything that came before the first clay tablets “pre-history” and thus implicitly not-history, although prehistorians have been salty about that for long enough that new terminology is used these days. Historians by and large don’t work on the ground, that sounds horribly like legwork which we’re more than happy to leave to the archaeo department. \*We \*work in comfy armchairs with the air conditioning on, thank you very much. > [@](#): > > Re-creating documents to add another field is Media Production, not History. I didn’t learn any History performing this busywork. It was a pointless exercise to talk about furniture, rather than talk about the economic turmoil the Earthquake of 1751 caused. > Imagine an event that causes the Mississippi River to run backwards and relocate 100 miles. The devastation would have re-made this world! Not a single mention of it in any of my Colonial studies… Perhaps that’s because some other professor was working on economic history but your own rightfully found that shit incredibly dull and uninteresting. Or because everything to be said about it has been discussed already, barring new discoveries - a large amount of “teaching history” involves putting a large amount of students in the general proximity of a large amount of books and sort of assume some osmotic transfer of knowledge is going to happen at the organic level :D, so maybe if you were interested in that you should have spent more evenings at the library. Again, I can’t speak for your specific teacher(s) or their methodology ; but there’s nothing “pointless” about the material history exercise you describe, and work of that nature is done all over the globe to degrees you would be baffled by. I still love that example for its ostensible absurdity, but my third year Contemporary History TA was working on a thesis about “sleep patterns and disruptions of sleep during the Commune de Paris”. Try and find a narrower field than that ! Obviously she wasn’t \*only \*interested in that, and it was just her angle to analyze the Commune itself… but that’s history for you. Poring over picayune details, establishing typologies, drawing up statistical charts. They all add up to lives lived. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/45 "2019-08-01T11:10:00Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > ETA: Okay, look further South, where it narrows to wetlands. Yep, I was right. Look, I’ll be honest with you - if your research abilities are so poor that you didn’t find out pretty quickly that those channels were created in the 30s by the Civilian Conservation Corps (something I, half a world away, could ascertain in 30 seconds via just the internet, no Uni library reading needed) then I would seriously question if you belong in a History Masters program in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/46 "2019-08-01T11:27:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yep, I was right. > > Look, I’ll be honest with you - if your research abilities are so poor that you didn’t find out pretty quickly that those channels were created in the 30s by the Civilian Conservation Corps (something I, half a world away, could ascertain in 30 seconds via just the internet, no Uni library reading needed) then I would seriously question if you belong in a History Masters program in the first place. That’s hilarious… That pattern is EVERYWHERE, and places we STILL have not been. Later editions of the Surveyors’ Manual dictate that satellite imagery can be used to identify other meander lines, and thus claim more Public Lands. Buddy, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/47 "2019-08-01T11:33:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You were talking about going to a house etc… > > And no need to go to Google Earth, I assume you’re talking about the drainage channels on the barrier islands. The _modern_ mosquito control drainage channels. Within the scope of that exercise, we ‘could’ have looked for the location of the actual house…examine the area for historical context…ask Why did these people have these items, what place or function did they have or serve in their society. Yeah, we didn’t build those canals…they are pre-columbian. They are everywhere, including South America, Asia, Europe. I’ve found them on remote islands. My discovery was of an ancient global civilization that collapsed 4500 -5500 years ago, but my advisors demanded I make it a North American study. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/48 "2019-08-01T11:35:53Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > My discovery was of an ancient global civilization that collapsed 4500 -5500 years ago, but my advisors demanded I make it a North American study. There it is. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/49 "2019-08-01T11:36:57Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You’re missing the point. > > … > > They all add up to lives lived. Agreed, which is why it should have been about MORE than these inventories… Can we agree History is a pursuit, not a static thing? ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/50 "2019-08-01T11:38:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > There it is. Yes, almost everywhere one can point to, there is evidence of “grid gardens and or fluvial fields”… * * * These same formations were found and dated in Bolivia to 4700- [A Fluvial Field - Imgur](https://imgur.com/gallery/RfWqVP0) An ancient society was REALLY into farming… ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/51 "2019-08-01T12:00:48Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > They are everywhere, including South America, Asia, Europe. I’ve found them on remote islands. My discovery was of an ancient global civilization that collapsed 4500 -5500 years ago, but my advisors demanded I make it a North American study. Ooowkay there. I’mma take a few steps backs veeeery slowly while keeping my hands in a non-threatening posture now. Then I’mma fucking leg it. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/52 "2019-08-01T12:03:04Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Ooowkay there. I’mma take a few steps backs veeeery slowly while keeping my hands in a non-threatening posture now. > > Then I’mma fucking leg it. Yeah, skeptic-tactic numero uno, avoid evidence contrary to your current thought pattern. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/53 "2019-08-01T12:10:05Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > Yeah, we didn’t build those canals…they are pre-columbian. No, we know exactly who built them, and when. The New Deal is well documented recent history, FFS. > [@](#): > > They are everywhere, including South America, Asia, Europe. I’ve found them on remote islands. My discovery was of an ancient global civilization that collapsed 4500 -5500 years ago, but my advisors demanded I make it a North American study. Why are you going back to Uni, Graham? Is the[book money](https://www.amazon.com/America-Before-Earths-Lost-Civilization/dp/1250153735) not coming in like it used to? ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/54 "2019-08-01T12:11:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, we know exactly who built them, and when. The New Deal is well documented recent history, FFS. > > Why are you going back to Uni, Graham? Is the[book money](https://www.amazon.com/America-Before-Earths-Lost-Civilization/dp/1250153735) not coming in like it used to? Uh, No. Did they build these too? [Ancient Rectangles - Imgur](https://imgur.com/gallery/fM9buJk) What about these? [NOT Modern Canals - Imgur](https://imgur.com/gallery/QHCzceo) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/55 "2019-08-01T12:13:16Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > These same formations were found and dated in Bolivia to 4700- [A Fluvial Field - Imgur](https://imgur.com/gallery/RfWqVP0) Is there a grid pattern in that picture that I’m not seeing? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/56 "2019-08-01T12:14:20Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > Uh, No. > > Did they build these too? [Ancient Rectangles - Imgur](https://imgur.com/gallery/fM9buJk) “these”? You mean the modern farms? Or the archaeological trenching? ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/57 "2019-08-01T12:24:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Is there a grid pattern in that picture that I’m not seeing? Not in that image. So my find is of a global industrial agricultural society. They farmed on MASSIVE scales, and employed this rectangular grid garden and or “fluvial fields” which is what you see imaged here. Similar formations such as these have been dated to 4700 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/58 "2019-08-01T12:26:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “these”? You mean the modern farms? Or the archaeological trenching? Here’s a mind blower, Yes, modern farmers are now employing these fields, and we can create enough food to feed what 500 million people, easily, in America alone…? “They are only one-third occupied.” THAT means, at full production, these areas could have fed BILLIONS… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/59 "2019-08-01T12:28:45Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > Not in that image So what the fuck did you mean by “those same formations”? ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/60 "2019-08-01T12:30:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So what the fuck did you mean by “those same formations”? Fluvial fields…terraforming raised gardens to help with irrigation. They are ancient, massive, and largely unused today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936.md?page=4)