# Shouldn't History be paired with Literature, rather than Government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936 "2019-07-31T17:23:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/61 "2019-08-01T12:32:24Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > Here’s a mind blower, Yes, modern farmers are now employing these fields My mind remains unblown. Also, those fields look _nothing_ like the Bolivian ones, which look _nothing_ like the channels in South Oyster Bay wetlands. _Which_ university was it, that kept you in the Masters program _after_ you first suggested this? I’m just needing to fill out this report to the accreditation board… ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/62 "2019-08-01T12:33:56Z")
You are [Episode 1, Series 1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5ve5L9jMOc) of The Detectorists, and I claim my five pounds. > [@](#): > > LANCE: See, I was reading about how coz we’ve had a hot, dry summer all the earthworks and archaeological features are showing up as dry patches in fields. > ANDY: Right… > LANCE: So I had a look, on Google Earth. Looked around the area, scanned the fields see what I could see. > ANDY: Right… > LANCE: And look! Henburystone. Those cabbage fields off the B1010, have a look… > _Andy leans in close._ > LANCE (CONT’D): There! > _Lance points at the screen._ > LANCE (CONT’D): Ring shaped feature in the field. > ANDY: Ok… > LANCE: Iron-age round-house! Look at it! But ‘what’s more’ over here, to the right…voila! Another one! > _He moves the mouse and then points again at the screen._ > LANCE (CONT’D): And then…move over to the right we’ve got another, slightly larger circular feature but this time with some sort of entrance. A gateway! All in a line! It’s a fucking iron age settlement! > _Andy looks at Lance, trying to figure out if he’s serious or not._ > ANDY: Iron-age settlement? > LANCE: What? Look at it! They’re right there. All in a line! > ANDY: Mate. You look at it. > _Lance looks closely._ > ANDY (CONT’D): Notice anything? > LANCE: No…what? > ANDY: Do these “features” seem to spell anything? > LANCE: No… wait… G…O…O… fuck it! > ANDY: Do they seem to spell ‘Google’? > LANCE: Fuck it! > ANDY: You prick. > LANCE: It’s the Google Earth water mark. > ANDY: It’s the Google Earth water mark. > LANCE: You’ve made that mistake before haven’t you? > ANDY: Yeah but I realised after fifteen seconds and never told anyone. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/63 "2019-08-01T12:35:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Is there a grid pattern in that picture that I’m not seeing? Grid Gardens/Rectangles- [Grid Garden - Imgur](https://imgur.com/gallery/Fr1gxXh) [![Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/fM9buJk.gif "Ancient Rectangles") ](https://imgur.com/gallery/fM9buJk) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/64 "2019-08-01T12:36:34Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > Fluvial fields…terraforming raised gardens to help with irrigation. Sorry, I don’t speak Woo - Are you trying to say “[terraces](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrace_(agriculture))”? > [@](#): > > They are ancient, massive, and largely unused today. Terraces are still used all over the world, mate. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/65 "2019-08-01T12:38:33Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > Grid Gardens/Rectangles- [Grid Garden - Imgur](https://imgur.com/gallery/Fr1gxXh) Overton Love wasn’t exactly a pre-Contact Native American. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/66 "2019-08-01T12:42:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > My mind remains unblown. > > Also, those fields look _nothing_ like the Bolivian ones, which look _nothing_ like the channels in South Oyster Bay wetlands. > > _Which_ university was it, that kept you in the Masters program _after_ you first suggested this? I’m just needing to fill out this report to the accreditation board… If you remain unimpressed, that’s on you. You KNOW this because you have investigated this area, and the Bolivian fields? ROTFLMAO They rejected my topic/finding…what do you want to report? Do you have a bonfire I could climb upon, before you start screaming “Heretic, burn the State-Hater, he wishes to supplant our History with Truth! Burn the discoverer, bury his facts!” ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/67 "2019-08-01T12:43:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Overton Love wasn’t exactly a pre-Contact Native American. Uh, No. In fact the entire Chickasaw Nation were moved onto those lands from East of the Mississippi. Laying FURTHER claim that these rectangles are pre-columbian. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/68 "2019-08-01T12:45:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Sorry, I don’t speak Woo - Are you trying to say “[terraces](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrace_(agriculture))”? > Terraces are still used all over the world, mate. Yep, and if you dig into them, you’ll see they are ancient, not modern. Just because you live in a Castle doesn’t mean you built it ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/69 "2019-08-01T12:47:01Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > If you remain unimpressed, that’s on you. I’ll gladly own not being impressed by 3 aerial shots of farms that look nothing alike. > [@](#): > > You KNOW this because you have investigated this area, and the Bolivian fields? No, I “KNOW” this because I have functioning eyes. > [@](#): > > They rejected my topic/finding… “… but I’ll SHOW them!!!” eh? > [@](#): > > what do you want to report? They let you change your topic, rather than laughing you out of the meeting, didn’t they? > [@](#): > > Do you have a bonfire I could climb upon, before you start screaming “Heretic, burn the State-Hater, he wishes to supplant our History with Truth! Burn the discoverer, bury his facts!” Yeah, Graham Hancock is so persecuted… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/70 "2019-08-01T12:52:24Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > Uh, No. In fact the entire Chickasaw Nation were moved onto those lands from East of the Mississippi. That’s kind of irrelevant. Now, if you had a pre-contact aerial shot for comparison… possibly from some sort of _vimāna_? > [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > Yep, and if you dig into them, you’ll see they are ancient, not modern. I don’t dispute that terracing goes back to prehistory. I dispute that that means a unified global society. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/71 "2019-08-01T13:01:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ll gladly own not being impressed by 3 aerial shots of farms that look nothing alike. > > No, I “KNOW” this because I have functioning eyes. > > “… but I’ll SHOW them!!!” eh? > > They let you change your topic, rather than laughing you out of the meeting, didn’t they? > > Yeah, Graham Hancock is so persecuted… Oh dear god…you understand that these fields are laid into existing land features…so NO WHERE would they be perfectly identical… EXCEPT THAT, the ‘grid gardens’ ARE the same size and shape, AND global in scope. Do you fall down, like a lot? First, they demanded I narrow my topic to North America, then they told me I had no primary sources. I found some using the Rectangle Survey data, sparse as it was, I did find one grid garden intact, with ALL of the primary sourced data I’d need. I spent a summer writing my prospectus. The Chair of my board admitted that he didn’t even read it, and instead took the advice of the other two members, and rejected the topic of the “Thomas Jefferson’s Rectangle Survey System, in South-Central Oklahoma”…out of hand. Hancock is the aliens did it, guy. For invoking that garbage, I’d like to metaphorically kick you in the crotch. That’s intellectual dishonesty to a disgusting degree. _ **“MrDribble, when you beat you wife, do you always smile?”** _ Do you see how disgusting that invocation is? Stop. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/72 "2019-08-01T13:02:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s kind of irrelevant. Now, if you had a pre-contact aerial shot for comparison… possibly from some sort of _vimāna_? > > I don’t dispute that terracing goes back to prehistory. > > I dispute that that means a unified global society. Size, shape, and unified dates indicate a global connection. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/73 "2019-08-01T13:11:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s kind of irrelevant. Now, if you had a pre-contact aerial shot for comparison… possibly from some sort of _vimāna_? > > I don’t dispute that terracing goes back to prehistory. > > I dispute that that means a unified global society. Overton used the land to raise cattle not farm. He IS the pre-contact owner of the land. He was wise in his choice of lands, and even with no machinery acquired more land than any other Amerindian before or after. Each field, rectangular in shape will hold 150 football fields- [Drone footage - Imgur](https://imgur.com/gallery/GekLGRo) Surveyor field notes indicate, drainage ditches, roads, fences, ALL existed before Overton got there. He had not ability to carve roads, dig miles of drainage ditches. When surveyors saw this, they had no idea they were looking at geometric formations. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/74 "2019-08-01T13:35:15Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > EXCEPT THAT, the ‘grid gardens’ ARE the same size and shape, AND global in scope. Humans worldwide faced with similar challenge produce vaguely (_very_ vaguely!) similar solutions! News at 11! > [@](#): > > First,The Chair of my board admitted that he didn’t even read it, and instead took the advice of the other two members, and rejected the topic of the “Thomas Jefferson’s Rectangle Survey System, in South-Central Oklahoma”…out of hand. So this university (whichever it is) isn’t a complete lost cause, then. Good to know. > [@](#): > > Hancock is the aliens did it, guy. No, that’s von Daniken. Hancock is the prehistoric human global civilization guy. Well, one of them, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/75 "2019-08-01T13:44:51Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > On that note, Overton Love, a Chickasaw Amerindian, owned over 5000 acres…until the Dawes Act. Sure; in the 19th century. He was born in 1823. Your claim that this document from the late 1800’s proves something about land ownership 400 years earlier is enough in itself to disqualify any thesis containing it from serious consideration. > [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > Within the scope of that exercise, we ‘could’ have looked for the location of the actual house…examine the area for historical context…ask Why did these people have these items, what place or function did they have or serve in their society. Before you could do any of that, you would still need a list of those items and who had them. How could you ask why they had the items or what function they served without first asking what they were? You seem to be very annoyed that you were expected to help do the necessary background work that must be done before it’s possible to do anything else useful with the information, > [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > Fluvial fields…terraforming raised gardens to help with irrigation. They are ancient, massive, and largely unused today. Yes, people in various places have been using terraces (which is not “terraforming”) and irrigation systems for a very long time. Yes, although some of them are still in use, some of them have fallen into disrepair, whether because the disparate cultures which built them collapsed or were conquered and the terraces were abandoned, or because the small terrace areas don’t work with standard modern farming techniques. Yes, such small scale handwork farming can be highly productive. No, they are not rectangular! Such terrace systems by their very nature have to follow the contours of the land in the particular place in which they’re built. They are extremely site-specific. Nobody took a rectangular template and used it in all the multiple cultures that went in for terraces. That would just plain not have worked. The fields are going to be similar sizes and shapes because the humans who built and who work/ed in them are similar sizes and shapes, and because building terraces on steep slopes follows the same laws of physics. You could just as well say that because the interiors of large numbers of rooms all over the world fall into a similar height range that this must have been ordained by an overall society, as opposed to having to do with the height of the people using them. – and while some terrace systems were irrigated, the terraces aren’t there primarily to make the irrigation work. Some ancient irrigation systems worked with terraces, others didn’t. Terrace systems are used on steep hillsides, to keep the soil in place and allow building fertile soil, and thereby make it possible to cultivate areas that are unfarmable if left in their natural steep slope. The fact that people in various places in which the terrain’s suitable for terrace farming had this same bright idea doesn’t mean that they were part of the same top-down culture telling farmers to do this. It means that over millennia there have been a lot of smart farmers in various places in the world. There may at some points have been some communication; but communication between different societies, without their all turning into the same society, is – or at least used to be – a very common thing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/76 "2019-08-01T13:46:23Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > Overton used the land to raise cattle not farm. Raising cattle _is_ farming. > [@](#): > > He IS the pre-contact owner of the land. So when he died he was over 400 years old, is what you’re saying? > [@](#): > > Surveyor field notes indicate, drainage ditches, roads, fences, ALL existed before Overton got there. He had not ability to carve roads, dig miles of drainage ditches. When surveyors saw this, they had no idea they were looking at geometric formations. Uh-huh. Cite? Let’s just check one thing before I go on - are you aware of the existence and extent and, most importantly, _age_, of the Mississipian Culture? ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/77 "2019-08-01T13:52:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Humans worldwide faced with similar challenge produce vaguely (_very_ vaguely!) similar solutions! News at 11! > > So this university (whichever it is) isn’t a complete lost cause, then. Good to know. > > No, that’s von Daniken. Hancock is the prehistoric human global civilization guy. > > Well, one of them, apparently. Okay, If you are going to ignore industrial sized, rectangle shaped, global farms, I think your ignorance is the real new story here. Riiiight…why in the name of all that is academically holy should an Amerindian student be allowed to study and research how one of the founding fathers instituted thievery…_TRUTH HERE_ look the other way everyone…MOVE ALONG, Trail of Tears, nothing to remember… I pity your kind of ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/78 "2019-08-01T14:02:03Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > … > > Your claim that this document from the late 1800’s proves something about land ownership 400 years earlier is enough in itself to disqualify any thesis containing it from serious consideration. > … That’s the only primary sourced data I have, from which to begin my Historical analysis, AND it isn’t where I began or ended, it is ONE piece of evidence. Nothing else of what you wrote invalidates any of my findings. Fluvial fields and grid gardens are two separate things. Flat plains got grid gardens, hilly areas got fluvial fields, but when you date the bottom layer, you get 4500-5500 years ago. In “America” alone, there were enough to feed over 1 BILLION people… THAT’s is crazy! This civilization was super-active, comparatively speaking about agricultural efforts. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/79 "2019-08-01T14:05:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Raising cattle _is_ farming. > So when he died he was over 400 years old, is what you’re saying? > Uh-huh. Cite? > > Let’s just check one thing before I go on - are you aware of the existence and extent and, most importantly, _age_, of the Mississipian Culture? No, it’s “ranching.” You gotta plow, plant, and harvest to “farm”… I cannot believe I am arguing with you. We don’t speak the same language, because you don’t understand words. Be well, buddy. I can’t help you. * * * Slide 13- [Rectangles by A.J. Knabe on Prezi](https://prezi.com/qza1jbt9xzdj/?utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=copy&rc=ex0share) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/80 "2019-08-01T14:50:48Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > No, it’s “ranching.” You gotta plow, plant, and harvest to “farm”… Here, I’ll use the simple Wikipedia, just for you… [Farming is growing crops or keeping animals by people for food and raw materials](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farming) > [@](#): > > We don’t speak the same language No. I speak English.The ranch/farm distinction is more what one would call an Americanism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936.md?page=5)