# Shouldn't History be paired with Literature, rather than Government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936 "2019-07-31T17:23:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/81 "2019-08-01T14:55:26Z")
Yes, history is _definitely_ literature. I’d argue that’s its defining aspect. Archaeology is a science, one that historians use to great extent. But history has specific named characters, and a plot. _Science_ tells us that Sumerians wore a certain type of clothing and made a particular style of art and built their houses a particular way and buried their dead in a certain way. But _history_ tells us that King Sargon was born to a high priestess and then put into a basket and floated down the river, where a gardener found him and raised the boy who later would conquer Sumer and found the Akkadian Empire. It’s literally, like it says on the tin, a “story”. History is the stories we tell ourselves about the past. Lately, accuracy and scientific confirmation has become paramount in the field of History, but it wasn’t always that way, as the highly dubious story of Sargon’s birth illustrates. But it is still history. Herodotus and Thucydides are generally agreed to have invented history, but I’d argue literature like the Illiad and Gilgamesh were history in the same sense, just not as accurate or literal. But they were stories a culture told about itself and its past. You can see even today how history is often about our current society’s perspective of itself than about any sort of unbiased collection of facts. Look at Columbus, for example. He was considered an American hero for centuries, and we taught our kids that he discovered America and we created a holiday in his honor. But now we’re told that Columbus was a monster, that he was racist, murderous, genocidal, slave owning scum. The facts didn’t change. But the story we tell ourselves _did_ change. That’s history in action. Commentary about motives, personality and even morality is essential in the practice of history, while that stuff is irrelevant to a science like archaeology. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/82 "2019-08-01T15:02:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Here, I’ll use the simple Wikipedia, just for you… > [Farming is growing crops or keeping animals by people for food and raw materials](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farming) > > No. I speak English.The ranch/farm distinction is more what one would call an Americanism. I duly object this of feckless pettifogging. You’ve done everything but address the countless global images, industrial in size, similar in size and shape, carbon dated to 4500, documented in surveyor notes, MADE ACCESSIBLE TO YOU, to arrive at what conclusion? That the Army Corps of Engineers was building these rectangles before the 20th century? AND all around the world…? :smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack: HOW in all that is based on truth and facts are you THIS flipping dense??? Are you in therapy, now? Can I offer you like a gift certificate to somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/83 "2019-08-01T15:02:26Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > industrial sized, rectangle shaped, global farms The Anatolian plots weren’t “industrial sized” and only vaguely rectangular, the Bolivian \*andenes \*were neither “industrial sized” nor “rectangle shaped” (did you mean “rectangular”? It is a word we English-speakers have.) And if you think Love’s 75-ha plots are “industrial size”, you’ve clearly never seen an actual industrial farm. ---
**Author:** ![King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_of_the_Americas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/84 "2019-08-01T15:04:57Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Yes, history is _definitely_ literature. I’d argue that’s its defining aspect. Archaeology is a science, one that historians use to great extent. But history has specific named characters, and a plot. _Science_ tells us that Sumerians wore a certain type of clothing and made a particular style of art and built their houses a particular way and buried their dead in a certain way. But _history_ tells us that King Sargon was born to a high priestess and then put into a basket and floated down the river, where a gardener found him and raised the boy who later would conquer Sumer and found the Akkadian Empire. It’s literally, like it says on the tin, a “story”. History is the stories we tell ourselves about the past. Lately, accuracy and scientific confirmation has become paramount in the field of History, but it wasn’t always that way, as the highly dubious story of Sargon’s birth illustrates. But it is still history. Herodotus and Thucydides are generally agreed to have invented history, but I’d argue literature like the Illiad and Gilgamesh were history in the same sense, just not as accurate or literal. But they were stories a culture told about itself and its past. > > You can see even today how history is often about our current society’s perspective of itself than about any sort of unbiased collection of facts. Look at Columbus, for example. He was considered an American hero for centuries, and we taught our kids that he discovered America and we created a holiday in his honor. But now we’re told that Columbus was a monster, that he was racist, murderous, genocidal, slave owning scum. The facts didn’t change. But the story we tell ourselves _did_ change. That’s history in action. Commentary about motives, personality and even morality is essential in the practice of history, while that stuff is irrelevant to a science like archaeology. Thank you. That was a great response. Please feel free to expound upon my other offerings, here. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/85 "2019-08-01T15:07:42Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > You’ve done everything but address the countless global images, industrial in size, similar in size and shape, carbon dated to 4500, documented in surveyor notes, MADE ACCESSIBLE TO YOU, to arrive at what conclusion? “Countless” must mean something different in your language. In my language (English), it’s definitely not “five”. I’ve dealt with the imagined “similarities” in the handful of photos you have posted, in the last post. You haven’t cited these surveyor notes, or any carbon dating lab reports, so no, nothing of any scientific merit was made “ACCESSIBLE” to me. I can’t give my conclusion in this thread, but I have already done so in the Pit… ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/86 "2019-08-01T15:16:21Z")
> [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > Do you fall down, like a lot? > > … > > For invoking that garbage, I’d like to metaphorically kick you in the crotch. That’s intellectual dishonesty to a disgusting degree. This is a warning for threats. Threats of any kind are not allowed anywhere on this board. > [@King\_of\_the\_Americas](#): > > HOW in all that is based on truth and facts are you THIS flipping dense??? > > Are you in therapy, now? Can I offer you like a gift certificate to somewhere? This is a warning for personal insults. Personal insults are only allowed in the Pit. * * * I recommend you familiarize yourself with the rules of the board and those of each forum. Continued violations will result in revocation of your posting privileges. * * * I’m closing this thread because it’s off the rails. Arguments are not a series of imgur links. At first this was about the role of government and literature in the teaching of history, but it took a quick turn into strangeness. If there is a desire to have a debate about agricultural practices throughout history, or ley lines, or whatever, open a new thread with a coherent premise for debate. If it’s more of the same those threads will be closed as well. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936/87 "2019-08-01T18:56:51Z")
King of the Americas - After abusive PMs were sent, I decided to just ban you. Doesn’t really deserve a separate thread, but I figured I’d drop this note here. [/moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-history-be-paired-with-literature-rather-than-government/837936.md?page=4)