Shouldn't the popular vote matter more to Presidence-Elect Trump?

Politics & Elections
41

The premise here is that voting is the means by which we determine the will of the people. The electoral vote is an abstraction of that principle, one step removed. For a party to claim the authority of the people’s will while failing to obtain a majority of the popular vote is… well, a lie, isn’t it? And to claim that this gives them the authority to impose their will on the nation is a perversion of democratic principle.

But the Republicans are doing precisely that, they are intent on seizing power they do not legitimately possess to undo and reverse the results of previous elections. They ought to be ashamed of themselves, but appear to be incapable of such. I was proud to see honest conservatives stand up against Trump, thinking that, at long last, we might have legitimate debate and compromise.

Alas.

42

What power, specifically, are you referring to here?

43

It’s what the EC does. It gives the impression of absolute routs, which aren’t that lopsided.

Reagan crushed Carter 489 to 49 in the Electoral College, but bested Carter by only less than 8% of the popular vote, IIRC. It’s mathematically equivalent to a room of voters, in which 25 voted for Reagan and 21 for Carter.

44

Well, only that power which is the power of government. You may safely exclude the power of prayer and the power of positive thinking.

45

That’s a vague, dare-I-say “evasive” answer. You said that Republicans “are intent on seizing power they do not legitimately possess to undo and reverse the results of previous elections.” That sounds pretty fucking serious. Like, torches-and-pitchforks time. If there’s any truth to it, I’d like to know. If it’s just partisan hand-wringing because your side lost and they will soon control the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of government, then I guess we can drop the hyperbole and move on with life. So, which is it?

46

I am suspicious of your motives, I think you are trying to lead me down the Road of the Endless Nitpick. Its like you’re asking “You claim the Germans invaded Poland, specifically, which German soldier crossed the border into Poland?”

He seeks to appoint people to positions in HHS and EPA, for instances, who are on record as virulently opposing the purposes of those institutions. These things are known, they are a part of our everyday news, and yet you know nothing about them? Forgive me if I am talking over your head. In the future, I shall work to be mindful of your limitations.

47

Hurricane Ditka wrote: " Like, torches-and-pitchforks time." How much of their convention did you watch? Torches and pitchforks would not have been out of place at that gathering. They did have a drumhead trial.

I’ve said it before: The right wants Trump to be for the right the kind of President that the right accused Obama of being for the left.

And no, not all Trump voters, just a certain subset which probably constitutes about a third to half of those who pulled the “R” lever this time. Gosh, if only there was some sort of convenient term we could use to reference that subset.

48

My nitpick, to the extent that it was one, was with your use of the phrase “seizing power they do not legitimately possess”. You make it sound like a coup, but most of us accept that Donald Trump and Senate and House Republicans (well, a majority of them at least) legitimately won their elections. They are the duly-elected leaders of the country. They didn’t “seize power they do not legitimately possess”. They absolutely legitimately possess it (or at least they will come January). Agree or disagree?

49

Oh, so most Americans loathe Planned Parenthood? Most Americans think global warming is a lie made up by China? Most Americans want to see Medicare and Medicaid dismantled? Most Americans want abortion criminalized? Its a long damned list, how much time do you have?

50

You’re evading the question again.

Is Donald Trump the duly and legitimately-elected next President of the United States? Yes or no?

51

I’m sorry, I’m afraid I cannot…or perhaps will not…reduce my arguments to the rudimentary level you insist upon.

52

Hurricane Ditka wrote: “Is Donald Trump the duly and legitimately-elected next President of the United States? Yes or no?”

Can you get back to us on December 19th?

At this point the title that seems most applicable is “presumptive President-elect”.

53

The only thing I was insisting upon was that you explain what you meant by “seizing power they do not legitimately possess”. Since you are incapable or unwilling to do that, I guess this is where our conversation ends. Good luck.

54

That stuff has been going on for 30 years though, local governments, usually with no involvement from the President, try to offer tax incentives for companies not moving jobs to other countries. It works sometimes, but it’s rare that they in and of themselves would be enough to determine a company’s decision–state and local taxes already tend to be relatively low on businesses (because states with high business taxes suffer when companies move to lower tax states.)

The reality though is that a lot of these companies have so much money to be made by moving jobs out of country that you could literally give them a 0% tax rate, and it’s still better for them to make stuff in Mexico.

55

If the electors refuse to name Trump as president and instead name someone else, I eagerly look forward to seeing Trump supporters “duly” accept this outcome with no quibble or qualification. Eagerly, I say.

56

Sure, and if space aliens land and declare Clinton the new Galactic Emperor, I’ll accept that too. Get real.

57

Well yeah, the American Carrier workers get $30/hour v. the Mexican Carrier workers who get $11/DAY. (Those figures were named in one if the Carrier stories on the board somewhere.)

58

And that was obvious, you just didn’t want to look at it. When FDR won the nation by a 60%/40%, that was a “legitimate” landslide. He was legitimately empowered to reshape the nation. In my opinion, the New Deal saved the nation from a further disaster than the one we were already suffering. You can check your history books to see what Party did everything it could to thwart that.

It is simplistic thinking to reduce elections to football games and the like, where one side totally wins and the other totally loses. The platform that Republicans are demanding is more extreme than their people power warrants. You can claim the legal power and pretend it is the same thing, but it is not. If it were, then “legal” and “just” would be the same thing, and only a very special kind of fool thinks they are.

Specific? Pick one out of many, because you can’t handle broader thinking? Well, I’ll try. Take Planned Parenthood. The Republicans hate Planned Parenthood and have long sought to cripple if not kill it. But the American people at large approve of PP, even as Republican legislators deliberately and knowingly tried to thwart that will. Only thing that stopped them was the President’s pen. Now, because of the technical mechanics of our voting system, they cannot be stopped. And this is possible not because of the people’s voice, but the lack thereof. The* people *did not elect Mr Trump, if they elected anyone, it was tired ol’ Hillary.

Therefore, it follows that Republican glee at the prospect of doing what they never should have done in the first place is dependent on a losing position in the people’s vote. (I’m assuming you heard about this?) Now, its true enough that no Republican likely could have been nominated without such a position, the Republican Party is in the grip of its most vociferous members.

So, there’s your specificity. Not crazy about this approach, but you insisted. The technicalities of the voting system not only do not manifest the will of the people, it positively thwarts it. As an egalitarian democrat, I cannot support that, even if I must endure it. “Legitimate” means something more than simply “legal”.

And what, then? People will suffer, some will die. The cold equations. (We are not on cordial terms, but I at least afford you the respect to believe that you don’t want that.)

Gaming the system is acceptable enough in football, hockey, etc. (But not poker, there must be standards…) A reasonable person would see the divisions in our people and chart a moderate course, nobody much happy because compromise is like that. The Republican effort to remake America in their image is not founded on the will of the people, they don’t have anything like FDR had. Their willingness to do so, based only on the technicality of a voting system reveals who they really are.

And a repulsive spectacle it is. And this is just the overture, in a minor key with dirge-like tones.

59

The majority of people polled didn’t want the ACA to pass. Should the President have listened to that sentiment?

If so he didn’t. And I didn’t see you condemning that.

Although I’m pleased to see you actually take a stand on something. Too often you’re only interested in dog whistle approximations. As someone else once said, you’re all style and no substance.

60

This is a very vague statement. One hardly knows how to reply to it.
“Majority of people polled” --what poll? How many people polled and by whom? When?
“Majority” – Numbers please, and sources. Thank you.
“Didn’t want ACA to pass” – The ACA has been around for a while…so when are you referring to?

The 20 million-ish people who now have health insurance and couldn’t get it before are probably okay with the ACA. But that’s just a guess on my part.