# Shouldn't we be paid to work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464 "2011-06-22T18:55:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/1 "2011-06-22T18:55:26Z")
Many people can chime in with horror stories of jobs that, more or less forced their employees to work off the clock. Many people will do it out of fear of being fired. But shouldn’t more be done about this? I know theres been some class action lawsuits regarding such offenses, but sadly I dont see this changing the work culture much. Perhaps if people were more confident and assertive, some companies wouldn’t be able to get away with it- how high of a turnover would a company tolerate by continuing to fire employees that refuse to work for free? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/2 "2011-06-22T19:10:14Z")
Not paying employees for time worked is a violation of fair labor codes (unless the employee is salaried). If a non-salaried employee is being forced to work without getting paid for all their time, they need to contact the Department of Labor (DOL). My company has over 85 thousand non-exempt employees and we are _very_ careful to pay them accurately. Working off the clock is grounds for termination for both the employee and the supervisor that permitted it, and it is stated clearly in our Employee Handbook. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/3 "2011-06-22T19:13:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Shouldn’t we be paid to work? Of course. Should we be paid an hourly wage, as opposed to an annual salary? No, some of us should not. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/4 "2011-06-22T19:15:06Z")
Nobody can be forced to work off the clock. Exempt employees don’t have a clock. Piece work employees don’t have a clock. People on stipends don’t have a clock. The horror stories come from whiners. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/5 "2011-06-22T19:15:53Z")
Depends on your contract, whether you’re salaried or not, etc. Most salaried contracts will ask you to agree to do extra work when needed. Your salary includes those hours. If it’s an hourly wage, of course, then yes. You should be specifically paid for every hour worked. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/6 "2011-06-22T19:18:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Should we be paid an hourly wage, as opposed to an annual salary? No, some of us should not. Not sure what your point is here. The OP is clearly talking about hourly workers. An exempt worker doesn’t have a “clock”, \* per se \*. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/7 "2011-06-22T19:25:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Nobody can be forced to work off the clock. Exempt employees don’t have a clock. Piece work employees don’t have a clock. People on stipends don’t have a clock. The horror stories come from whiners. Read the OP more carefully and when come back bring comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/8 "2011-06-22T19:26:10Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Not sure what your point is here. The OP is clearly talking about hourly workers. An exempt worker doesn’t have a “clock”, \* per se \*. If the OP’s clock was not metaphorical, I agree. I had a suspicion the OP was not differentiating between hourly and salaried employees, but if he was then I am in agreement with his position. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/9 "2011-06-22T19:32:03Z")
Sometimes the problem stems from management trying to claim that “work” is a certain set of actions that they have defined, and that other actions that must be done before and/or after don’t count as “work” time. This could be prepping an area before opening, or cleaning up after closing. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/10 "2011-06-22T19:43:22Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Read the OP more carefully and when come back bring comprehension. I comprehend that the OP refers to non-specific complaints of workers being\* forced \*to work \*more or less off the clock _. Nothing in the OP clarifies the nature of employment for these anecdotal people, or what_ more or less off the clock _means. It doesn’t specify what_ forced \*means either. If really means forced, that would be crime of violence. If they meant the threat of job loss, that’s a civil wrong that can remedied, if the employee actually is working _on the clock_. When come back, bring less bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/11 "2011-06-22T20:32:12Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Read the OP more carefully and when come back bring comprehension. It’s very clever of you to be snarky, but the OP did not specify. He used a colloquial term “the clock” which I, for one, do not understand the exact meaning of. I guessed and provided answers for both salaried and per-hour positions. We don’t all use the same slang. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/12 "2011-06-22T20:49:30Z")
[More or less same thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=608194) from 2 months ago. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/13 "2011-06-22T21:32:48Z")
It seems pretty clear to me that the OP is talking about hourly employees. He talks about class action suits (it would make no sense for salaried employees to bring such suits), and working for free (meaningless for salaried employees). Yes, it is illegal for hourly employees to be coerced into working for free. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/14 "2011-06-22T22:09:32Z")
Just as an aside, in California there is also a class of salaried workers, called computer professionals or something like that, who must also be paid for all hours worked, at the rate of 1/40th of their weekly salary per hour. That is, take their weekly salary, divide by the number of standard hours worked in a week, and that becomes their weekly rate. If they work more than 40 hours a week they get paid that much additional for every hour they work (at straight time, not time-and-a-half). At least that’s the way it works for me. This law was passed reportedly to stop the abuse of programmers and system engineers and such folks who were working 18-hour days and sleeping under their desks to meet deadlines. I was never abused like that, but I get the benefit of it. Except that what happens instead is that I am forbidden from working more than 40 hours a week because my company doesn’t want the extra expense. So when we’re busy, some things don’t get done as fast as management would like. Kind of a cleft stick for a non-abusive company. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/15 "2011-06-23T00:09:16Z")
Lots of hourly employees do not get fairly paid for all their hours worked. Many employers violate the FLSA and other labor laws by requiring employees to stay after closing to clean up or to come in before opening to open up and not considering those compensated work time. In coal mines it used to be getting all the equipment ready to go into the mine, and then the long ride to the face (sometimes 15+ minutes) were not considered work time. Even though the cleaning and preparing of equipment is clearly labor and even though the long trip to the face involves them being totally under the control of the employer in a dangerous coal mine. It is now the case that because of reactions to that the moment an employee arrives at the work site and is under the control of the employer they are working and must be compensated. If you run a factory and it is a 10 minute journey from the front gates of your facility to the employees work station–that 10 minutes must be paid work time for all hourly employees. Many people are also classified as exempt who, under the letter of the law, should not be. The reason most of this isn’t exposed is because even though the penalties for the employer are substantial (often you will pay everything you _should_ have paid the employee, **plus** triple damages, so if you shorted someone $1,000 they end up getting the $1,000 plus another $3,000 = $4,000. If this is a long standing practice then if it came out it could quickly bankrupt even large companies), it is still the case that people who come forward and end up winning their case and getting their entitled damages still end up without work. They typically do not win such large pay outs that they can afford to not have a job. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/16 "2011-06-23T00:17:33Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > Many people can chime in with horror stories of jobs that, more or less forced their employees to work off the clock. Many people will do it out of fear of being fired. But shouldn’t more be done about this? I know theres been some class action lawsuits regarding such offenses, but sadly I dont see this changing the work culture much. Perhaps if people were more confident and assertive, some companies wouldn’t be able to get away with it- how high of a turnover would a company tolerate by continuing to fire employees that refuse to work for free? Employers are abusing people right now because they can. Interns are being brought in and made to do the work that was once done by employees (which is illegal) Temps/contractors are replacing full time employees since they have fewer rights, lower wages and no benefits and people are being misclassified (not illegal, but immoral if not economically necessary) People are taking across the board pay cuts, etc. Everyone is so desperate for work that nobody wants to complain because if you do get fired, good luck finding another job. Plus with ‘right to work’ laws, there are an endless number of reasons you can fire someone. They may complain about being forced to work off the clock but you don’t have to fire them for that. You can fire them for something stupid instead if they cause trouble. It comes down to labor laws, market dynamics, how assertive the work force is, etc. Right now the laws seem to benefit employers, there is a labor surplus and workers are timid. So it isn’t going to get better anytime soon in my view. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/17 "2011-06-23T01:10:22Z")
I’m salaried now and there isn’t a day I’m not putting in some kind of hours for work. That’s the nature of salary. You’re paid to get a job done not for putting in hours. But I’ve never worked an hourly job where I didn’t get paid for the hours I worked. Back in the convenience store clerk days it was at least time and a half after 40 hours, which was rare, because owners of convenience stores are notoriously tight. They’d rather have the trainee close up on Saturday night then pay the assistant manager an extra 3 dollars an hour. In the warehouse days it was time and half for after 40, and Fridays (it was a Sunday through Thursday gig) and double time for Saturdays … which was sweet for a working stiff. Maybe it’s Maine. Maybe it’s working in a semi-urban area, Idunno, but I never was forced to work unpaid. Except when my dad made mow the lawn. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/18 "2011-06-23T03:25:27Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Not paying employees for time worked is a violation of fair labor codes (unless the employee is salaried). > > If a non-salaried employee is being forced to work without getting paid for all their time, they need to contact the Department of Labor (DOL). Over the past generation the Department of Labor has been rendered virtually powerless when it comes to enforcing this sort of thing. The amount of evidence that’s necessary to get an investigation rolling is simply so large that it rarely happens. There are numerous opportunities for a company to use its lobbying power to derail the investigation. Even when the investigation does find the company guilty, the punishment is a slap-on-the-wrist fine. From a profit-seeking perspective it makes sense of companies to violate labor laws. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/19 "2011-06-23T03:52:26Z")
the people who will go along with the demands of the employer for de facto lower wage (hurray for globalization!) are playing the “outrun the bear’s victim” game. If there are not enough jobs and they play ball, they get the job and you don’t. By contrast, if they decide to join in singing kumbaya and demanding their “rights” along with you, then there will be a few possible outcomes: - maybe the employer will find some other “scab” - or maybe the employer will go out of business; it’s not hard to go out of business nowadays, and all the more so if faced with labor militancy - or maybe the union, the government department or some other such political body, manages to take the still solvent employer by the throat and enforce the rules to the letter; then the big question will become who will get the remaining jobs - would it be some politically connected and favored people? or people with the most seniority? or people who are most productive and hence worth higher wage? whichever one it is, it’s obvious that the potential “scabs” might belong to none of these categories and hence not look forward to such an outcome. Overall, labor militancy is no joke during times of economic turmoil, especially in countries where political culture is of an idiocratic bent. One well known case of that is Italy in the 1920s before Mussolini showed up and figured out that there was more to be gained by beating up his fellow socialists at the behest of the capitalists than the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464/20 "2011-06-23T20:56:39Z")
case in point for my above post, Walmart promotes managers willing to work 50-80 hours per week [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/opinion/22Lichtenstein.html?\_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/opinion/22Lichtenstein.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss) . These managers, surprisingly enough, turn out to be mostly male. You can imagine how passionate they are in agitating for ironclad rules on how much managers ought to work per week that would have protected the “rights” of women who don’t want to work that much but do want the same cushy managerial salary. > [@](#): > > The obstacles to women’s advancement do not stop there. The workweek for salaried managers is around 50 hours or more, which can surge to 80 or 90 hours a week during holiday seasons. Not unexpectedly, some managers think women with family responsibilities would balk at such demands, and it is hardly to the discredit of thousands of Wal-Mart women that they may be right. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-paid-to-work/586464.md?page=2)